about the specifics of the investigation. their hope is this will be a short to medium term political hit. this will be resolved. their case will be sort of proven that it was inadvertent in the end, not a huge deal. they'll take lumps in the short-term, and long-term, especially as we get into 2024, this will be behind them. >> the president hasn't said anything about it in over a week. i don't think we should expect that to change anytime soon. eli solkols, author of "the west wing play book," and thank you for getting up "way too early" on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. good morning and welcome to "morning joe," it is thursday, january 19th. this morning, we are learning more troubling details about the man accused of hiring gunmen to attack democrats in new mexico. we'll have those new developments. and how trump's big lie

continues to spawn violence across the country. meanwhile on capitol hill, the stalemate over the debt ceiling continues as the country hits its borrowing limit. we'll have the latest on efforts by the white house to find some sort of compromise. plus, the george santos saga takes another really strange turn. now there are questions about where his mother was on 9/11. also ahead, we are hours away from a decision on criminal charges in the deadly shooting on the set of "rust." remember that? we'll get you caught up on the case that could come to a major development this morning. and we'll dig into new reporting on an aggressive new proposal from the biden administration as it pertains to the war in ukraine. joe has the morning off but willie and i are here in new york, and we have with us, the former aid to the george w. bush white house and state department, elise jordan, an msnbc political analyst. former white house communications director under president obama, jennifer

palmeri, jen is the cohost of show time's "the circus" and the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire, and with us today, we're going to put him to work, msnbc legal analyst, danny cevallos. good to have you all with us this morning. we are learning new details, several new details this morning about the failed republican candidate for the new mexico state house who was arrested after allegedly orchestrating a series of shootings at the homes of democratic officials. solomon pena, a staunch supporter of former president donald trump and backer of false claims of election fraud was denied bail yesterday during his first court hearing in albuquerque on charges he master minded four shootings and took part in at least one, after he lost his state house race last november. no one was hurt in the shootings, but, willie, this raises so many questions about

trump's big lie and the whole concept of i didn't win so i'll steal it, and spawning more violence. you have to see the connection. >> yeah, it's a disease, and this wasn't a close race, as we said yesterday. he got absolutely wiped out. there's no contest. he says it's his diseased mind that the election was rigged. between the november election and when the shootings began in early december, the 39-year-old pena is said to have visited the homes of multiple local officials, unsolicited, unannounced complaining about election fraud and what he per -- perceived to be voter inconsistencies. pena also vented his frustrations online insisting on social media the election he lost was fraudulent and that he was contesting the results. in november, he tweeted he supported former president

trump's 2024 white house bid. pena also wrote he quote never conceded his november race and was quote researching his options. december 10th, pena responded to a tweet from democratic house minority leader hakeem jeffries who wrote quote violent insurrectionists and extreme maga republicans, accused dems of undermining democracy, get lost. pena responded that new mexico's elections were quote absolutely rigged and that we will pursue justice. in his words. pena responded to another user who wrote that he would never win his district writing quote, incorrect, once the rigging is stopped, i will be sworn in as the state rep for district 14. it is rigged. >> wow. okay, danny, what questions come to mind when you look at this case, and does it pertain to anything on a national level in your opinion? >> it absolutely pertains -- it absolutely goes to a national level because this is a deep

concern about threatening members who are members of a legislative branch or people who would run for office. what's interesting here is that you have a situation where when it comes to federal law, there may not be a lot of federal laws that apply neatly to this controversy because most federal laws dealing with intimidation of voters or people who are running for office are limited to the federal offices that they're running for. so in this case, this will most likely stay a state case. and the other thing to think about is that they have the coconspirators at this point. they have a lot of evidence and what you're likely going to see, they're going to cooperate the coconspirators, and they will come into court, point the finger at this defendant and identify them. these are ideal people that the government will go to and cooperate because they have plenty of liability. by all indications, this was hardly the perfect crime. it was a stupid crime, and when you have stupid coconspirators, the state goes to them, and

says, hey, you know, how loyal are you to this guy who's definitely going down? they'll end up cooperating. they have a lot of other circumstantial everyday. >> it's hard to go there, wouldn't the department of justice in their investigation of the big lie and january 6th look at things like this happening across the country as connected? >> yeah, so you bring up an interesting point, and i have to bring us back to the january 6th prosecutions in which some of the defendants raised the defense of trump made me do it, and that was really interesting because as a defense attorney you don't get to pick your facts. prosecutors pick the facts they take to trial, so in fairness to the defense as wacky as that defense sounds, trump made me go into the capitol, sometimes as a defense attorney you, don't have a lot. you come up with whatever you can, whatever the judge will let you put into evidence and try your best. is it successful, probably not. the mere fact that it's being considered as a possible defense

tells us that we're at a different political place in this country where you can even consider saying that the president made me do it. that kind of defense is usually reserved to crazy people at home who think, you know, their tv is bugged or the aliens have landed in their backyard. this is not a defense you ever would have imagined ten years ago or even six, seven years ago. it's madness. there is an indication, this, the conspiracy shooter, this is an indication we're at a different place in our political history, i got so riled up by any political beliefs, my commitment to my political party or side conservative, liberal that i went out and took things into my own hands. this is a fascinating case about how far you can go when you feel however wrongly that you have had an election taken away from you. >> this wasn't idle chatter by a nut online. the shootings happened.

thank god no one was injured or hit by the bullets. there was a 10-year-old girl of a state senator who woke up in the middle of night and said mom, i think there are spiders in my bed. it was the sheetrock from the bullet, this is real stuff with real people's lives in the cross hairs. so as you said, a terrible crime. we see all of this intent leading up to it. all these tweets, rhetoric, doorbell cams of his visiting the houses. seems like a relatively easy case for prosecutors? >> yes, this is one of the cases that they already have a ton of circumstantial evidence. you know what you find, law enforcement loves things like social media, text messaging, your iphone backs everything up to the cloud and a lot of people don't realize that. technology has made it a lot easier to come up with circumstantial evidence. this is not the first time and the last time that i will see a photograph of a defendant in an idiotic pose with a bunch of guns, maybe sometimes it's a

bunch of drugs, but sure enough, suspects with a table full of firearms, that has happened plenty of times. modern criminals decide to post their doings online, on social media, maybe they think it makes them look cool. you know who loves it, police, the first thing they do is scour the social media of a suspect, and almost always find something. >> i understand we can stay at a local level and look at the trump made me do it defense, but i'm actually turning that around and saying this is the case against trump, all of these smaller, but incredibly important and increasingly dangerous events across the country where people decide, you know what, it was a lie, and i did win, and i'm going to follow someone who believes in the big lie like me, who started the big lie, donald trump, jen palmieri. you look the at influence he had

across the country, the division he started in his campaign, promoting violence in his presidency, which started with charlottesville, lafayette park, january 6th, you name it. the man has promulgated across the country. sometimes you wonder in the investigation of january 6th, investigation of the big lie if you cannot draw a direct line between donald trump and what is happening with violence across our country as it pertains to politics? >> i don't know if you can do that legally, but you saw the tweet that willie read from hakeem jeffries, and he said that it was rigged and he was going to pursue justice. well, what model was set for pursuing justice by the president of the united states. you say it was rigged and then you resort to violence, and, you know, that's what we saw with january 6th, and among the things troubling about this case

in new mexico, you said before, maybe it's a disturbed person at home that said the president made me do it. this is not a lone wolf. this is somebody who got a gang of people together. >> assembled a team who's down with this. >> assembled a team of people who agreed this is the righteous thing to do. >> what does that look like? >> they think they are following the model of the former president of the united states, but this is, you know, it's just not even -- it's not even an anomaly anymore. >> it's not. and elise, you were here sitting in this very studio as we were following all of trump's violent tweets, and the crazy things that would happen and we would talk about how dangerous this is. how it is changing our democracy, undermining our democracy. this is fascist behavior. and this is what happens as a result of it. >> well, the delusion has gone mainstream among the followers of donald trump, unfortunately,

not completely, but you see how this is getting pretty -- this is someone running for office. he's approved by the state party. so you see where it's gone just from donald trump's talk. how many times were we told, this is loose talk, he doesn't mean it, and so many republicans in on the joke, and there are plenty of people who aren't in on the joke now, and it's scary. >> is it possible as the doj investigates january 6th that events like this could also play a role to show the result of the behavior if there is a case against donald trump. >> that's interesting because now we have evidence that if you ask the question how far can this belief in the big lie go, well, you can point to this case, obviously right now a state case, and say, oh, this appears to be the outer limits, at least so far, of what people will do if they believe they

have been wronged by the electoral process. they may go to someone's door, confront them, and later on go around shooting up their houses. after january 6th, are any of us even all that surprised that something like this happened? >> no. >> this is the kind of thing that we have now had our white blood cell count raised to the level that this isn't that much of a surprise, which is a scary thing. >> and willie, i don't think anything changes until the actual person who inspired all of this was at the center of all of this, seized consequences. it's not enough that people who were there on january 6th are being dragged off to jail for years in the name of donald trump. it has to come back to the person who spawned this all. >> well, and he made this an acceptable option, if you lose an election, go this route. i'm not saying necessarily shooting, but be kari lake and two months later be on podcasts talking about how the election

was stolen from you when everyone else has moved on. violence is our lives. political violence. the governor of michigan was kidnapped, paul pelosi, someone looking for nancy pelosi. political violence is with us now. jonathan lemire, you wrote the book on this "the big lie," this is a signal donald trump sent out from the top. maybe it remains a game to him. it's not to a lot of people out there receiving this message. >> the latest incident reinforces the big lie is still with us. it was a defining issue of the 2022 midterms and a lot of americans celebrated when the most prominent election deniers were defeated, you mentioned kari lake. there are republican members of the house of representatives who voted to decertify joe biden's win who was easily elected in

2022 in deep red districts. we have heard alarms from intelligence agencies, and lawmakers for a couple of years now, certainly after january 6th. suggesting that political violence was sadly a part of our discourse. you tick through some of the examples and this won't be the last. talking to senior officials yesterday, they were very grateful that no one was killed here. the big lie is with us, that it's not this was a close race and maybe this gentleman had even a remote point about, hey, the election is close, he lost by 48 points. 48 points. some like president biden have denounced acts like this. his speech after the paul pelosi attack, so many on the right will issue a statement and move on. we have not heard anything from donald trump saying things like this shouldn't be part of our

national discourse. it seems like with his statements he's almost encouraging them. we're going to come back to the story. but speaking of lies, there's a new question about when and where congressman george santos's mother was when she died. he tweeted, his mother died as a result of the september 11th terrorist attacks, writing quote, 9/11 claimed my mother's life. but unearthed immigration records obtained by nbc news show his mother was living in rio de janeiro. she had not been in the country since 1999. records first reported by "the washington post." despite those records, his campaign web site reads georgia's mother was in her office in the south tower on september 11th, 2001 when the horrific events unfolded. she survived, but passed away a

few years later when she lost her battle to cancer. in a separate tweet from santos, he writes that she passed in 2016. he denied the allegations in a text message, but has not replied to a request for comment from nbc news. not really allegations. statements of fact that are hard to dispute. pick your lie, but this one is particularly appalling to sort of make 9/11 a part of your personal story. >> also to make your mother's death part of your story. to lie about your mother's death. when i heard this i thought he was making a tangential tie, like maybe his mother was, you know, in the area of ground zero and got cancer later. no, he said she was at her desk in her office. the degree of specificity he puts in his lies, it's really daring.

>> the republican party has set the table for exactly this situation, and their lack of action at this point shows that they are comfortable exactly here with someone who his entire life, candidacy, campaign, every detail, social, personal, professional, is a lie. and that's what they've got. they sit there bumbling. the local republican party is horrified. you can ask the questions as to how this didn't happen in the campaign. who ran against him, george zimmerman, i think it is, robert zimmerman, are you kidding me? what happened? malpractice there too. but these republicans are sitting in this big barrel of lies. and they are comfortable. >> they're okay with it. the delusion, again, is mainstream. it's connected. this is all connected. if you're okay with, you know, the election denial you somewhat are okay with this.

mom died in 9/11, the guy stole $3,000 from a new jersey veteran so the dog couldn't get cancer treatment. the dog dies. it's sick, twisted business. >> it's easy fodder to start laughing and to make fun of. some of the lies are crazy. i'm going to say, we need to work hard on not doing that. this gentleman is extremely disturbed and he is serving now in congress. he's not fit for the position. not even close. and he is disturbed. there is something, you know, he's not well at all. there's something pathological about him, and it's dangerous, not just the people he's serving, the job he's doing, but personal safety. >> think of future candidates, say what you have to say, and do what you have to do to get elected, you're going to get a pass from your own party. there are legal questions about fundraising and things like

that, which could, i think some republicans are maybe hoping that the courts take care of him so they don't have to deal with the problem. what legal exposure does santos have at this point? >> right now most likely it might relate to his pac, his political action committee. his fundraising endty that may not have been registered. he could run into fec problems with that. the vast majority of these lies are not actionable. boosting your resume. when you get into the fundraising, so many laws deal with that that he could get into trouble. just as a thought, we have known habitual liars, usually some distant uncle or as a criminal defense attorney i have a steady stream of habitual liars for some time, but normally you

ostracize them. it's not about someone like george santos. it's people who are willing to elect him and not look too deeply into the habitual liars. don't bother confronting them, they're not going to change. we're in a climate people are looking to accept that. >> to your point that it's with the people who elected him. i've seen great reporting on the after math where constituents are talking to local reporters how upset they are that this fraudster is able to have their seat in congress and that they played a role and elected them because they do feel it was fraudulent, and then it falls on the leadership of the republican party. is it acceptable to have a guy who is a scam con artist who has lied, who has always of this financial irregularity following him around, are you okay with that, and for now they are. >> kevin mccarthy is, he needs

the vote. republicans have let donald trump lose for them again and again and again. i won't go through joe's list. he does it better than me. he's lost many times. when you're so close with your numbers, you need a complete imposter. you should be comfortable enough politically. you should have enough space politically. you should be winning to the point where you can have a situation where you have to have someone step down, and you ask them to leave but they can't afford it, i guess, jen. >> but you would hope that -- i mean, first of all, having him sit there, it's not just bad for the republican party, it hurts the credibility of the united states congress at a time where it's all pretty tenuous anyway, and you have the -- you would hope that the national republican party would react the way the local county did where they all stood up, you know, the entire leadership of the republican county party, i'm forgetting is it nassau county, and there were dozens of them that stood up to say, we were

wronged. we supported him, and now we think he should step down. solidarity in numbers. i was impressed by that. and other times under speaker boehner, speaker ryan, republican members of congress had been accused of certain behaviors, sometimes involving their family, sometimes financial, and they found a way to get that person out. and even when they did not have big margins. they understood there was something bigger at stake here. you could say, look, george santos is distracting everyone from what republicans are talking about. you would like to think they would be worried about the credibility of the house of representatives, and it's just -- >> every day there's something new. this man is not -- it's not going to end well, and it's just they might want to get on the

right side of that. i'm concerned at the direction, as we all are, the direction this is heading. this guy is not okay. one more for you danny, this is a big legal day. there's going to be a decision on whether any charges will be filed in the 2021 deadly shooting on the new mexico set of alec baldwin's film "rust", and the charges will be revealed today. the district attorney and special prosecutor say they will release a written statement with their decision this morning. according to a spokesperson for the d.a.'s office quote regardless of the district attorney's decision, the announcement will be a solemn occasion made in a manner keeping with the office's commitment to upholding the integrity of the judicial process and respecting the victim's family. helena hutchins was working as the movie's cinematographer when the gun baldwin was practicing with went off, killing her and

wounding the assistant director. he claims he did not know how live ammunition got on set. so first of all, danny, could baldwin be charged or is he clear at this point, and what's your gut on just how cases like this are -- i mean, you never point a gun at someone is like the bottom line, but could baldwin be charged in this? are they looking at the people who prepared the gun? >> he could be charged, in all likelihood. he should not be charged ultimately. i believe there will be charges. there are up to four other people that the new mexico d.a. has been indicating they may charge. they asked for $600,000 in funding to start to investigate this case, which implies that they're looking towards charging someone but it would be unwise to charge alec baldwin with any kind of homicide, and the only homicide that you could really charge him is the version of homicide that is not intentional because we know this was not an

intentional act. that pretty much leaves involuntary manslaughter, which requires criminal negligence, and here, in almost every other case, you can make the argument that somebody pointing a gun is recklessly disregarding a risk, but i would argue if i were defending him and he was charged that he didn't believe, this is the rare occasion that somebody holding a gun can lawfully believe they don't have a gun. they might as well have a block of wood, it's a prop, it's a toy. so even pulling the trigger and pointing it at a person, if someone assures you, not just anyone, but someone who should know better, the first assistant director that you're not holding a gun, i can't see how you get to criminal negligence in holding something that you don't believe is a gun. so if they choose to charge alec baldwin, it could only be with some version of criminal negligence or recklessness and i think he gets acquitted at trial. it's too close a call. and prosecutors generally shouldn't bring charges that they just think they can get

charged. they should think they can prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, and i don't think there's beyond a reasonable doubt evidence here. there is possibly charges against the other people, the first assistant director, the armorers, and to give precedent. decades ago, brandon lee, the son of bruce lee was killed in a very similar accident, and the conclusion by law enforcement was that this was not any one person's negligence. a bunch of really bad decisions led to a projectile being stuck in a gun with what was supposed to be a dummy round. i think if that's any precedent, they may conclude there was a bunch of acts of negligence and no one person was criminally responsible, and yet i still think someone's getting charged today. >> what i don't understand is just with basic gun safety, but also on the set of a movie there are procedures that you go through to prepare the gun, hand it over, communicate that it's, you know, ready to use, and then

the actor or actress also has regulations they have to follow. so i agree with you, negligence at best, but at the same time, i wonder why only people who prepare the gun are -- if they are charged, what about the person holding it, they're supposed to follow regulations as well. >> he says he did. they're supposed to tell you if it's a hot gun. >> but you're never supposed to point a gun at a person. >> it's not a gun. he believed it's not a gun. >> aren't the regulations on the set of a movie, that even when you're shooting a scene, it's not pointed at somebody? >> yes, and so if they rely on care, to prove recklessness, you have to prove your conduct deviated from a standard of care, and disregarded a known risk. if we believe alec baldwin was

not holding a gun, you shouldn't point anything that looks like a gun at somebody, i still think there's reasonable doubt there because everyone will concede that alec baldwin thought it was a cold gun. to get to beyond a reasonable doubt, the highest standard in the law, i don't think you get there. there's going to be reasonable doubt, even if alex baldwin may have violated the first rule of gun safety, never point a gun at anything you don't want to destroy, alec baldwin can take the stand himself, and by the way, he's going to be a fantastic witness because his entire life he has been persuading people as an actor, and doing well at it. if he takes the stand, he's already given a ton of interviews, some of them probably hurt him. some inconsistent statements but he also wins. >> he also says it's not a gun. i pointed a prop, a toy at somebody as i have done a thousand times in other movies. for some reason, this was hot and loaded and it's not my fault. >> we'll be watching as this

plays out today, what happens if any charges. and who. msnbc legal analyst, danny cevallos. >> you know where else we'll hear danny today, on the howard stern wrap up that he hosts on 101. he's amazing. >> thank you. actually, it's a news show. it's john lieberman's show. >> but he does the wrap up show sometimes. >> i do the wrap up show all the time. >> oh, my gosh. >> multitalented. >> he's so versatile. >> thank you, danny, we appreciate it. thanks for coming in. still ahead on "morning joe," the latest from capitol hill, amid a debt ceiling standoff, the treasury department is set to take special measures to keep paying the government's bills. new reporting out about the biden administration possibly softening its stance on helping ukraine target crimea. what that could mean for the ongoing war and what exactly is the strategy there? and new polling shows former president trump with a double digit lead over governor ron desantis in a potential 2024

match up. we'll dig into those new numbers. also ahead, it's not a pressing story, but it's sure to spark a conversation. there's a new debate about having cake in the office? really? okay. i think the debate is in the uk because nobody comes to work here. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

[beep... beep... beep...] i'm your glitchy wi-fi and i've decided... well, if you're on vacation, i am too. ha-ha-ha! which means your smart home isn't so smart. sprinkler on. and now i'm sending mixed signals to your garage. and, if you haven't bundled your home and auto coverage, trying to unpack this isn't going to be too much fun. hey, check the router!

so, get allstate and be better protected from mayhem while saving up to 25% when you bundle home and auto.

♪ ♪ start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. we don't know when the war will end, but we have to make sure it will end and ukrainians win. i don't think that there's any other choice. if russia would win the war, then we would only see a decade of this kind of behavior ahead

of us. i think other countries are looking very closely at what is happening now in ukraine, and if russia would win, then it would send a message that you can invade another country. you can attack another country, and you can gain from that. >> the prime minister of finland promising to support ukraine as long as necessary, and is calling on other world leaders to do the same. she made the comments tuesday at the world economic forum in davos. meanwhile, "the new york times" reporting that several u.s. officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity said the biden administration is considering supplying ukraine with the power needed to strike the southern ukrainian region of crimea, even if it runs the risk of escalating the war. russia has occupied the crimean peninsula for nearly ten years. according to the times, those officials say the administration feels that if ukraine can make

russia's grip on the region appear weaker, it will bolster ukraine's leverage and potential future negotiations. joining us now, coauthor of that report, pentagon correspondent for the "new york times" held -- helene cooper. what do you think the strategy is here especially when it pertains to dealing with vladimir putin and his ever changing mental state? >> good morning, mika, thanks for having me. you've seen the biden administration and nato allies slowly coming around for the past year. it's been almost a year now of this war in ukraine to supply ukraine with more and more offensive weapons. remember a year ago when people barely -- when the united states officials barely wanted to admit we were giving ukraine stingers and javelins?

i remember getting in trouble with one story i wrote where i wrote that i used the word stingers, and that was something that the administration officials weren't even acknowledging at that point. we've come a long way since then. we've gone through himars now. we're looking at advanced rocket systems, and just two weeks ago, you saw president biden agree to provide ukraine with 50 bradley fighting vehicles. >> yeah. >> a bradley is a personal -- is a troop carrier, but is also mounted with a 25 millimeter anti-tank gun, and what a bradley does is it takes -- it's an offensive weapon that takes troops to the fight. the whole point of the bradleys is to help ukraine to go on the offensive, to take territory back, and the administration

officials we talked to who months ago wouldn't want to think about the idea of using american weaponry to help ukraine target crimea now say that they want -- they are considering doing that. they've already done it as far as you look -- as far as when you look at the so called land bridge that connects crimea in russia. it goes through mariupol and the bradley fighting vehicles can certainly take ukrainian troops towards that fight. but the himars that the united states, and these are also advanced systems, the himars that we have begun giving them can now put that crimea land bridge in target, in range for ukrainian troops, and so it's this steadily loosening of the self-imposed handcuffs that the biden administration has put in themselves, and part of this is

because there is more of a belief that vladimir putin's, you know, vladimir putin has tried to make crimea a led line, and said that you can't touch crimea, but the reality is crimea is ukraine. it's not russia. the united states doesn't recognize crimea as being russian and there's this growing bleach within the administration that the escalation fears that they had -- that has sort of stopped them from helping ukraine to target crimea may not be as worrisome as they thought. it's not that they're not there at all, they're still worried that vladimir putin could escalate, but the worry that he would escalate against nato as opposed to escalating against ukraine has diminished. >> you write in reporting your piece that the biden administration doesn't believe na ukraine could take back crimea militarily that russia has been for a decade. it's the idea that russia knows

it could be at risk, that the united states might help to attempt to take back crimea might put russia on its heels. >> that's exactly it for now. there are plenty of military experts who believe that ukraine could take back crimea. the biden administration isn't there. the pentagon isn't there. they think that's beyond the reach of the ukrainian military at this point. but they do like the idea of putting crimea in jeopardy at the very least so that once we get hopefully to negotiations between the two sides, putin believes that he could lose crimea and is more willing to negotiate. >> pentagon correspondent for the "new york times," helene cooper, thanks for bringing your new reporting this morning, we appreciate it. so jonathan lemire, inside the white house right now, we had this week the british foreign minister was in town meeting with secretary blinken. there was just a public show of

solidarity in the effort to back ukraine, now almost a year into this war. where is the biden administration in its view of how things are going and where it might go now as we enter year two? >> they remain encouraged by the progress of the ukrainians, but know there's a long fight ahead. it's been an interesting inflection point among the allies, in the last month or so. in the wake, i should note of president zelenskyy's visit to washington to meet with president biden where a lot of european countries and the united states have loosened restrictions on some of the weapons they have sent to ukraine. they are holding back for a time. we are seeing tanks go over there. other vehicles akin to tanks are making the trip. the u.s. and the patriot missiles. others, there's some debate on the more offensive weapons that ukraine could use to strike deeper interruption or in this case, crimea. though not over there yet, that seems to be on the table for discussion as well. because there's an understanding this war is not going to end

anytime soon. the russians, you know, have shown no inclination to have any kind of negotiations, putin addressed the russian people, suggesting they should prepare for a long war. there are rumors he may be calling up more men and other mobilization in the weeks ahead, and if this were to happen, and the ukrainians have made good use of the arms that they have, but they have no ability to produce anymore. their facilities have been destroyed. so they're going to have to rely on the united states to send them things. the u.s. is responding to those. please, particularly as ukraine warrants that russia might be getting ready to mount another invasion. so i think it's going to be a long slog, mika. and the u.s. committed to helping the ukrainians even as there are some worries about the domestic political appetite from republicans in the house. and coming up from inflation to talk of recession, and now a potential debt default. there is much to be concerned about when it comes to the u.s. economy. but steve rattner says there is some good news. he joins us with charts on that.

straight ahead on "morning joe." . straight ahead on "morning joe." before treating your chronic migraine— 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more you're not the only one with questions about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start—with about 10 minutes of treatment once every 3 months. so, ask your doctor if botox® is right for you, and if a sample is available. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection

causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. don't receive botox® if there's a skin infection. tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. in a survey, 92% of current users said they wish they'd talked to their doctor and started botox® sooner. plus, right now, you may pay zero dollars for botox®. learn how abbvie could help you save on botox®.

♪♪ over the last 100 years, lincoln's witnessed a good bit of history. even made some themselves. makes you wonder... what will they do for an encore? ♪♪ nicorette knows quitting smoking is freaking hard. you get advice like... just stop. go for a run. go for ten runs. run a marathon. instead, start small with nicorette,

which will lead to something big.

6:47 in the morning, a beautiful live picture of the united states capitol. the country expected today to reach its debt ceiling. the limit, which means the country's borrowing officially will be maxed out. this will force the treasury department to take what it calls extraordinary measures to keep the nation's payments going through early june and to prevent the u.s. from defaulting. as of this morning, there is little progress on capitol hill to resolve that problem. the white house, senate democrats, congressional republicans refusing to budge on their stances. "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. good morning. so this deadline is almost certain to come and go. it's an initial deadline as you were telling us yesterday. we have time to figure this out.

what happens today when this dead limit deadline goes, and the markets react how? the rest of the world reacts how. >> the markets will react relatively benignly because everybody knows this is sort of the warm up, if you will, and history will tell us that in every single case, we had a debt limit fight, it went down to the wire after the so called extraordinary measures were put in place, after they bought time in effect by taking pockets of money they had access to and other things they could do. the best estimate is july. could be june. could be august. history would tell you it usually tends to be a bit later than they think. you're going to see a dance, and everybody repeating their same positions all along. the white house will negotiate, republicans want major changes, and then, you know, at 11:00 p.m. some night in july, with luck, with luck, we'll actually get this thing

resolved. jen, until a decade ago, this was a pro forma vote, raise the debt ceiling, now it's become a negotiating tool, and it raises all the questions about what kevin mccarthy promised this group of 20 members of his caucus to get himself the speakership. deep spending cuts. the white house has said, we're not bargaining with you. we shouldn't use this as a moment to sort of push the boundaries of our economy because you want some spending cuts. >> and i work for president obama, you know, with steve and in 2011, there was a lot of wreckage. it wasn't just -- it wasn't like it didn't just go up to the deadline, the united states credit rating was downgraded just because of how tenuous it seemed, and this time, like a number of things have changed since 2011 where they eventually got it together. but you have a speaker, boehner was trying to get to. he had the house freedom caucus that was pushing him to take

measures like the house freedom caucus, and the mccarthy house wants him to do. but boehner was trying to get to a decent place. in this case, you have the speaker of the house who promised his job, right, he made promises to bring up these pretty drastic. andy biggs has a plan for the united states to default, or this national sales tax that apparently -- mccarthy made promises about bringing that up, and so you see the white house is really focusing in on these -- treating these options that the republicans are bringing forward seriously because you have to take them at their word that they're going to do what they want to do, right? this is what we have learned after january 6th, they're going to -- believe them when they tell you what they're going to do, and ten years ago, when we dealt with this, the american public was like debt limit, what?

full faith and credit of the united states. i don't know what these words mean, but now we understand that it has -- at a time when the economy, you know, is still in a tenuous place, too, they understand that this can mean damage to their 401 ks, interest rates going up. a real impact on people's every day lives. maybe we have six months, you know, to get there, but the white house is going to be banging on this as they should because you have to believe the house republicans when they say what they're going to do. >> to underscore what jen said, the 2011 debt crisis was the worst, certainly in modern times, and as jen said, the u.s. lost its aaa rating, and it had lingering effects. you can't say, even if you resolve this on the courthouse steps, so to speak, you can't say nothing has happened. you have people losing their jobs. the economy slowed down, the stock market reacted quite

negatively. this one feels worse. these people are more dug in. more determined to abstract major concessions than any of the other ones watch go by. >> let's talk about a tangential part of the debate, the national sales tax that some republicans are pushing. that just seems like a political gift for democrats, a new national tax. can you talk about what the implications will be? >> sales taxes are highly regressive. everybody pays the same percentage. if the sales tax is 8.3, 4%, we all pay that. when it comes to income tax, we may very different rates. some people pay nothing, some 15%, some as high as 37% on federal tax. it immediately shifts the tax burden more towards people with the lower income, and i think that is the political cudgel that i would wield if i were a democrat. >> given the uncertainty with the economy, you say there are some good things happening.

and so go through them, but i want to understand what happens if then the economy has a downturn because we don't -- we're sort of still uncertain about what's to come. you say there's good news, starting with wages. >> i don't always like to come on here and give you bad news. at least i have some facts that allow me to give you some good news that really hasn't gotten a lot of attention, and to your point, it may not be permitted but here it is for now. let's look at what's been happening to the people closer to the bottom, and we have talked an all lot on the show about growing income inequality, what you can see on the chart is for the first several years after the great financial crisis, people at the bottom, that's the red line, in terms of wage increases did substantially worse than everybody else, and so they were falling further and further behind, relative to hiring. income inequality was widen. 2016, an interesting thing started to happen. people at the bottom started to

do better, and you can see the red line crossed the other lines, which are the income levels and started to do better. why did it do better? it took us 92 months, but we finally, in that time period got back to the 5% employment we had enjoyed before the great financial crisis, and when there are fewer jobs available, wages tend to go -- i'm sorry, when there are more jobs available, wages go up. employers have to pay more to get people to do that, and then the pandemic hit, and there was an immediate hurt to everybody, including people at the bottom. but then as the economy reopened and you have huge amounts of stimulus going into the economy, the demand for workers went up, and wages went up. you saw a lot of increases in minimum wages. and you drove by a lot of fast food restaurants are advertising for people for 15 or $16 an hour, and so people started to benefit from this, it's called running the economy hot. when you're running at a low unemployment rate like 3 1/2%.

and i'll give you another fact which was that a few years ago, and in normal times, you have more job openings than there are workers. today you have far more job openings than you have workers and so the wages that people have to pay do get bit up. >> so these positive swings, positive adjustments in the economy, are they circumstantial? or are there any policies that helped promote something positive happening toward equality and wage growth? >> so certainly running progressive policies where the benefits are shared more by people at the bottom helps, running, as i said, the economy close to full employment. but hopefully not creating inflation helps. but let's take a look also at what happened to wealth during the pandemic because the government does play a big role in this, and this is a charter wealth. we were talking about income. now we're talking about wealth. and so in just three years, from 2019 to 2022, right in the heart of the pandemic, you can see

that wealth of the people in the bottom 50% of the country went up by 125%. it more than doubled. and you can see in comparison, wealth for every other income group, including at the very top went up by smaller percentages. obviously the dollars are very different. in terms of dramatically changing the fortunes of people at the bottom, we did have a big impact. and what had that impact? some of it was appreciate in real estate. a lot of people's assets further down is in real estate, talk about whether it might continue to. so far it has done very well. house prices were up 75% for people at the bottom. the next thing that happened is we put an enormous amount of stimulus back into the economy, and that put cash into people's bank accounts. if you put that chart up for one more second, you can see on the right side of the chart, what happens to the average bank balance of someone in the bottom 50%. you can see it was sitting at about $1,500, well less than $2,000, and it jumped up to over

$4,000, and those are the stimulus payments, those are the unemployment payments. those are all the other benefits that we have put in place. and so for the first time, people had some degree of economic security that they didn't have before. thanks to our government policies. >> and you say it's not all good news, despite improvement, the potential for a recession still looms. >> both are true. let's talk about income inequality, even with the improvement stands at unbelievably low levels. in terms of income, the bottom 50% gets 11% of the total income, so obviously way worse than its share. when you look at wealth, it's more dramatic, the bottom 50% holds 3.3% of the wealth in this country. and amazingly enough, if you go back to to 2011, that bottom 50%

only held .3% of the nation's wealth. it has a long way to go. >> steve rattner with the charts, thank you so much, we appreciate it. thanks for coming in. it's great to see you. and still ahead, the chilling digital trail left behind by the failed republican candidate accused of orchestrating shootings at the homes of democratic state officials in new mexico. plus, we'll speak with new mexico's secretary of state about the apparent politically motivated violence there. also ahead, donald trump undermines his defense against claims of sexual assault. and you will not believe how. we'll explain that when "morning joe" returns. how we'll explain thathe wn "morning joe" returns

why are 93% of sleep number sleepers very satisfied with their bed? maybe it's because you can gently raise your partner's head to help relieve snoring. so you can both stay comfortable all night. save $1000 on the sleep number 360 special edition smart bed queen now only $1999. only for a limited time. research shows people remember ads with a catchy song. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a little number you'll never forget. did you know that liberty mutual custo— ♪liberty mutual♪ ♪ only pay for what you need♪ ♪only pay for what you need♪ ♪ custom home insurance created for you all♪ ♪now the song is done♪ ♪back to living in your wall♪

they're just gonna live in there? ♪yes♪ only pay for what you need. ♪liberty liberty liberty♪ ♪liberty♪ top of the hour, welcome back to "morning joe." joe is off, elise jordan, jen palmieri, and jonathan lemire is still with us. joining the conversation we have member of the "new york times" editorial board, mara gay, and white house editor for "politico," sam stein. good to have you all with us this hour. our big story this morning. a suspect in new mexico is facing more than a dozen serious charges following a string of shootings at the home of public servants. van hilliard has more. >> reporter: solomon pena yet to enter a plea, appearing

virtually. just two months after losing his election for the new mexico state house, the republican candidate is being accused of orchestrating a plan to shoot at the homes of four democratic officials. pena lost his race decisively by 50 percent points but falsely claims it was rigged. one of the county commissioners responsible for certifying local elections. >> my name is solomon pena, can i speak with debbie o'malley. according to her, he drove to her new residence with what he claimed was evidence showing he hadn't actually lost. >> there are several here. as a matter of fact, one came very close to the porch. >> reporter: one month later, o'malley says, her home was shot in the middle of the night. >> it saddens me that this is happening in our country. this narrative of, you know, we're cheated, everything was

rigged. there's fraud, come on. you know, i grew up with a value set that if you lost, you know, you accepted that with grace. >> reporter: arrest documents detail text messages between several alleged shooters and pena said after the election, exchanging addresses. authorities say an unnamed informant say pena joined for the fourth incident, frustrated. pena wanted them to aim lower and shoot around 8:00 p.m. because occupants would more likely not be laying down, which would increase the chance of obtaining the desired effect of the shootings. this is not pena's first arrest. he served nearly seven years in state prison in connection with a series of smash and grab burglaries. about two months before the election, a judge ruled he was able to run for office despite being a convicted felon. >> pena has been venting his frustrations online, insisting the election he lost by a huge

margin was fraudulent, and he was contesting the results. in november, he tweeted he supported former president trump's 2024 white house bid. and then he quote never conceded in his november race, and he was researching his options. >> what does that sound like. >> reporter: -- jeffries wrote violent insurrectionists and extreme maga republicans are melting down over repeated election losses. they accuse dems of undermining democracy. get lost. pena responded, new mexico's elections were quote absolutely rigged and quote, we will pursue justice. pena responded to another user who wrote that pena would never win his district writing quote, incorrect, once the rigging is stopped, i will be sworn in as the state rep for district 14. it is rigged. end quote. that's a tweet, sam stein, from

pena. again, we're seeing real world consequences from someone listening to a message coming from donald trump and others about rigged elections and an option now apparently if you lose an election even by 48 points to say that it was rigged, it was fraudulent, it was stolen from you, and then to carry out violence in reaction to that. >> obviously there are certain cases nut balls, crazy people do insane acts, and this appears to be partially one of them. it's fair to say our politics has become incredibly toxic, and elections themselves have become almost nondemocratic in a way in how we receive the results, and if your response to losing by 48 points is to hire alleged hitmen to go out and try to shoot people, you clearly are unhinged. it also says something about the political system you're operating that you think this is a viable option. and so we need to obviously

reassess how we're handling election results and more importantly election defeats. >> mara gay, i understand what sam is saying. it's technically, scientifically possible this man had nothing to do with being inspired by donald trump and fully acted completely on his own, but i doubt it. okay. i mean, this is an inspiration by the big lie, throughout the entire story that willie was taking us through, you hear echoes of donald trump. and people have already died as a result of the big lie. there has already been a riot and an insurrection because of the big lie, and i believe this is the reason the number one person who pushed it, the leader of the big lie, needs to face charges of sedition, conspiracy, and justice at the very top might be the only thing that stops this, but over the past few years, we've all talked

about the danger of the fascist tendencies of the former president. >> yeah, that's right. mika. first of all, this is what happens when you have no accountability, to your point, so people need to be held accountable starting with the former president of the united states. i think it's really important when things like this happen that we don't look at these individual cases as lone acts of political violence with no historical context or even just context from just less than a year ago when former speaker nancy pelosi's husband was nearly killed in a political -- act of political violence, so, you know, it is connected. i think it's more comfortable for us to say that somebody might just be crazy or disturbed. but that's not really what's happening here. and i also just -- there's a history of political violence in this country that we could look to and look back and say this does happen here. this has happened here, and this

is really hostile to democracy. i mean, when something like this happens, the chilling effect is not just on the individuals who are targeted but is on individual voters who start to say, is it safe to show up to the polls? why do i want to show up to the polls if i can't trust in this system. what about people who may want to run for office but look at this and say this is too dangerous: this is actually the purpose of political violence. >> this was a follow up to january 6th. >> exactly. >> carried out on a local level. this is exactly the plan. whether he knew it or not, this is what he's pushing every step of the way, and it can't be ignored, jen, i mean, this is what trump has done to this country. >> yeah, and it's like it's not -- i mean, it has the -- >> this is a cult-like leadership following, and this is what happens when people who

are, i would say, vulnerable to having their minds poisoned. >> yep. >> this is what happens. >> and they have built a community, you know, of millions of people across the country that adhere to everything that he says, and it doesn't stay -- you know, it wasn't even just one guy that he had orchestrated a group of people to participate in this. and, you know, mara talks about accountability, and you brought it up, too it will change when the president, if president trump is held accountable for it. but that alone won't change. >> that would be the biggest way to turn the corner. >> and if republicans would then come out and say, yes, he was right to be charged, yes, this is causing -- >> kevin mccarthy, on january 6th, was scared, scared, scared. >> their lives were on the line, they did it. >> here's a reminder of some of the political violence that donald trump has encouraged,

starting even before he became president. just a refresher. >> we're not allowed to punch back anymore. i love the old days, you know what they used to do to guys like that when they were in a place like this, they would be carried out on a stretcher, folks. i would like to punch him in the face, i tell you. >> you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you, seriously. just knock the hell, i promise you, i will pay for the legal fees. >> the white house grappling with the ongoing backlash over all the words president trump didn't say in the wake of the violent clashes in virginia, not specifically calling out white supremacy groups behind it all. >> you look at both sides, i think there's blame on both sides, and i have no doubt about it, and you don't have any doubt about it either. >> you have very bad people in the group. you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. >> he referred to protesters as

thugs and wrote when the looting starts, the shooting starts, but the president claimed no awareness of that expression's link to 1960s racial unrest, used by a miami police chief who wielded tough tactics in black communities. >> i am your president of law and order and an ally of all peaceful protesters. >> this is an extraordinary escalation on the streets in front of the white house right now, in the last 15 minutes, mounted police have been coming down the street. you're going to see them in the fray, using flash blanks, and mounting police to clear what has been an entirely peaceful protester. not 90%, not 99%, but 100% peaceful protests here today. there was no throwing of water bottles, objects, but a short time ago, mounted police officers have been clearing the street. if you could pan to the right, i want to show the military

police. on the side of the street. over the last half hour, we had military police, secret service officers, car police, and now we've had national guardsmen lining the fence. they have been stepping up closer and closer and closer. >> there continues to be a constant roar of sirens and helicopters that you can hear on the white house grounds that the president was obviously able to hear as he headed over to that park. of course one thing the president wasn't able to hear were any of the protesters because the police and national guard had aggressively pushed them out of the park moments before the president made his walk over there. >> we're going to walk down pennsylvania avenue, i love pennsylvania avenue, and we're going to the capitol, andwe're going to try and give the -- the democrats are hopeless, never voted for anything, not even one vote, but we're going to try to

give our republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don't need any of our help, we're going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness they need to take back our country. >> we should point out, mr. pena at the center of the story in new mexico, was at the stop the steal rally on january 6th, but not inside the capitol. new reporting titled "accused master mind of new mexico shootings left a chilling digital trail," how far does this go for many pena who was wiped out in the election, but had feelings and posted about them for months beforehand. >> he only started tweeting last summer. what struck me about looking at his social media posts is they just kind of seemed to blend in. he seems like most other right wing accounts that i follow and

that i cover. the mix of content just wasn't even that remarkable because we come to expect that in 2023. it was covid conspiracies, qanon kind of linked conspiracies. a lot of, you know, accusations that the election was rigged, and so it didn't really seem to strike me as that unusual including the violent threats. unfortunately that is how most of the candidates and posters tend to express themselves. there's all of these accusations of people being traitors, all of this talk of civil war. the difference is he actually acted on it. >> he called himself a maga king, vowed to stand up and stand by donald trump, quote, until my dying day. i want to read some of vera's reporting. pena's case is one of the starkest representations of the growing trend. a want to be legislature motivated by conspiracies who lashed out violently against officials he perceived as political enemies. the case shows how powerful and potentially radicalizing election fraud conspiracies

continue to be after the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol. and two months after midterm elections that went off smoothly with relatively few republican attacks on the integrity of the vote. so vera, he is -- again, the voters were on to him obviously. he lost by 50 points, but there are plenty of members of congress sitting there right now in the house of representatives who were elected, partially based on their support of donald trump and their support of these conspiracy theories. >> right, and a lot of them seem to inspire each other. his case, on the local level, we see candidates lashing out, tweeting at a lot of democrats, especially women, calling them prostitutes, accusing a lot of them of overthrowing donald trump. he was not only angry about losing his own election, and you know, lashing out and calling it rigged, but he was also obviously very angry about donald trump's electoral loss, and you know, initially that is

something that national security officials say is driving a lot of people to take action. >> my god. >> some of the rhetoric you lay out, and you did a good job digging through this. us american nationalists he wrote, will prevail. you will have to kill us to stop us, and again these shootings were real. there was a 10-year-old girl sleeping in her bed who luckily was is not struck by the bullets that were fired into her home. political correspondent vera, thank you so much for your reporting. we appreciate it. >> elise, what to say about these people? we haven't heard much, and maybe sam can bring us up to speed from national republicans about this. they haven't condemn's donald trump's rhetoric. they have participated in a lot of the rhetoric. i guess we shouldn't expect to. it should be pretty easy to condemn something like this. >> state officials in new mexico have been pretty tepid and pointing out that he, pena, this an illegal gun. yes, he did. he had an automatic rifle he shouldn't have had. he's a convicted felon, so do something about gun safety laws, too, while you're at it.

>> this was a mini january 6th. okay, this guy was caught up in his own big lie. he had someone to follow that did the same thing. i don't know how else you can look at it. there are direct parallels. in the court of law, there will be different details with different results. hopefully justice will prevail. again, until justice prevails with the man who started all of this, there will be more. >> we talk about copy cat murders, people that see that there's someone who committed a crime and they got a lot of attention, and therefore they want to do it too so they can get attention themselves. it's different with these people. they think they're doing the right thing. they think they are in a pursuit of justice. they think it's not just about their own glory. they think that they are part of a larger cause. and so if, you know, i'm sitting here thinking, you know, watching that piece and

thinking, what does mitch mcconnell think about all of this, right? what do, you know, relatively establishment -- they're coming back to a place -- >> it won't stay limited to that kind of violence. all the way that mara laid out that it affects the political system from running to people voting in the democracy. but also, like, they could be coming for you because if the wrong republican wins a primary, if a more conventional republican beats a maga republican, this is going to happen again. it's becoming defying election results, denying them is common place, and the violence is becoming more prevalent. >> jonathan lemire.

>> silence from leadership among republicans, of course as we could have predicted, silence from donald trump. i wrote in my book, the big lie, that the legacy of the big lie, which started well before january 6th also wouldn't end on january 6th. and most of that's the political ramifications, republicans refusing to accept defeat, refusing to say they will honor the results of an election, these are the kari lake types that we saw in 2022. and some of those went down to defeat, but not all. a lot of lawmakers in congress voted to desert joe biden's election, but there's also a thread in the book, and this is now even seemingly more timely, the idea of violence, mika, the legacy of the big lie is not just politics but it's the violence about how january 6th showed that in some circles, it was okay to take up arms, to attack police, to attack democratic institutions. and that's what we're seeing here, and until the leaders of the republican party really denounce this, it's going to

continue. and even then, it's just injected the bloodstream on the far right, especially on social media. unfortunately, this won't be the last instance like this. probably not even close. >> it won't. and i mean, before the violence, the legacy of the big lie is lying. this mr. pena lost his election by a landslide and just decided that he won, and look at george santos. sitting there as a member, as a sitting member of congress on committees, a man whose entire campaign and life that he shared with the world has been built on lies, and it's okay. it now happens. it's just part of common -- and that's exactly how it begins. this is what we have been talking about, about trump's effect and how the fascist tendencies pervade our politics and others take it and run with it. that is what is happening. i wouldn't turn away from it, those who can make a difference, and again, i know justice takes

a long time, but i really hope it happens for our country. by the way, there's a new reporting in the "washington post" that revealed former president trump mistook his sexual assault accuser, author and advice columnist e. jean carol for his ex-wife marla maples when shown a photograph from the 1990s at a deposition. that could undermine one of the common defenses he has used to deny that he attacked and raped e. jean carol. she is suing trump for defamation, and sexual assault. she said trump sexually assaulted her during an encounter at the department store in manhattan in the mid-1990s. trump has repeatedly said carol is not his type, and denied ever knowing her. the post reports that under examination from carol's lawyer, trump said quote, that's marla, yeah, that's my wife.

that's according to excerpts from the deposition unsealed yesterday in u.s. district court in manhattan. but trump's mistake was quickly corrected by his attorney who told him, nope, that's not marla maples, that's carol, his accuser, not marla maples. the post points out that trump's lawyer did not immediately have a comment regarding the story. so. >> i mean, what is there really to say? >> he said that she wasn't his type, and he always talks about people's physical qualities, he has nasty things to say about people's looks. >> and how beautiful all of his wives are, can't keep them straight. >> his wives are beautiful. >> never do any work. he told me they never do any work. not a bit of plastic surgery, nothing, beautiful, gorgeous. >> always beautiful, and this is marla. >> that's not marla, donald.

>> looks like he's a little off his game. maybe a little sleepy. >> still ahead on "morning joe," we'll watch that case. that's very interesting. >> what's more offensive is the she's not my type. rape is not about your type. disgusting. >> he's offensive in an unlimited way like i have never seen anybody i have ever known my whole life, he is the most offensive person. >> vile. >> vile. >> the way he talks about women. >> one skirt is the same as the next, right? that's my wife, the woman -- who's accusing me of sexual assault, what difference does it make. >> can just grab them. >> exactly. >> and you don't grab women like that. so that's a whole different question. still ahead on "morning joe," the debt ceiling standoff on capitol hill could have serious consequences for americans. we'll talk to the director of the white house national economic council about that. plus, an update on buffalo

bills safety damar hamlin's remarkable recovery following his collapse on the field earlier this month. and before we go to break, don't forget, forbes and know your value are hosting the second annual 30/50 international women's day summit in abu dhabi from march 7th to 10th. it's a global event bringing together generations of women from all cultures, both the 30 under 30 and 50 over 50 lists coming together. we'll hear from former secretary of state, hillary clinton who will be there, along with gloria stein am, malala, curry, mentorship, leadership and we'll build life changing relationships that can change the world. we hope you'll join us. to learn more about the 30/50 summit in abu dhabi or how to intend go to forbes.com or

knowyourvalue.com. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. ♪♪ remember the things you loved doing... before your asthma got in the way? get back to the things you love... with fasenra. fasenra is an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma. having too many eosinophils, a type of white blood cell, can cause inflammation and asthma symptoms. fasenra is designed to target and remove eosinophils and helps prevent asthma attacks. fasenra is 1 dose every 8 weeks. fasenra can help patients to breathe better. most patients did not have an asthma attack in the first year. and fasenra helps lower the use of oral steroids. fasenra is not for sudden breathing problems or other eosinophilic conditions. allergic reactions may occur. don't stop your asthma treatments without talking with your doctor. tell your doctor if your asthma worsens. headache and sore throat may occur. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. get back to better breathing. and get back to your life.

ask your doctor about fasenra. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help.

almost at the bottom of the hour here on the east coast on sunday, the bills and bengals face off again, this time in the divisional round of the playoffs. the last time they played, safety damar hamlin collapsed on the field in cardiac arrest. he now of course is making a remarkable comeback. again, visiting his teammates at their practice facility. nbc news correspondent emilie ikeda has the latest on hamlin's recovery. >> reporter: days after damar hamlin was released from the hospital, the buffalo bills player taking more strides in what doctors are calling a remarkable recovery. head coach john mcdermott reveals he's back at the facility this week. >> trying to get back to a little bit of a routine, and just getting himself acclimated

again, and taking a baby step at a time here. >> reporter: and while hamlin is not participating in team meetings, mcdermott says number 3 is making daily visits. two and a half weeks since his on field medical emergency. >> that experience is -- we'll carry that with us, and there's a challenge to that but there's also a lot of good that came from that. right now we need to focus on the positive. >> reporter: positive signs seen along community streets and in hamlin's social media posts as the football star's stunning recovery continues. >> it's awesome to see him smiling again. >> he's in great spirits and, that helps with the recovery prose for all of us as well. >> to see him come back from that is a blessing from god. >> reporter: that blessing just days ahead of the bill's biggest match up of the season. >> buffalo bills take the field. >> reporter: hamlin's cardiac arrest on january 2nd rocked the football world and beyond. prompting the cancellation of the bills bengals game in

senate. >> this is the last thing you want to see. >> reporter: both teams set to face off for the first time since that daunting day, and even with a shot at the conference championship on the line, there's one player everyone is rooting for. >> to see damar getting healthier, to see where it's ended up. i think there's always going to be a strong connection between the two organizations, and that's a good thing. >> that game is on sunday at 3:00, a rematch, just extraordinary, mika, two and a half weeks after, to put it bluntly, damar hamlin died on the field, and they brought him back to life at nine, ten minutes. there's a chance the bills aren't saying anything that he could make an appearance at the stadium, and could you imagine the energy and chills for anybody watching the game if you were able to make it on sunday. >> that would be amazing. we're going to turn to politics, new polling with donald trump showing a

commanding lead over ron desantis. according to a new morning consult poll, president trump leads with 48% support among potential gop primary voters. governor desantis follows with 31%. no other candidate has double digit support. sam stein, i feel like this is the first time we've seen it flip this way, where usually it's ron desantis who's got the edge over donald trump? >> well, yeah, i mean, the national numbers have stayed like that, what you saw. what we've seen recently is that desantis in key states has, in fact, moved ahead of donald trump. this is all hypothetical. donald trump has declaredment ron desantis has not. and tying this to our last conversation, you see donald trump as much as some republicans wish it weren't so, donald trump does continue to have a pretty good grip on a very significant portion of the party. and until someone rests that from him, i think it's fair to say this is still donald trump's party. what happens when ron desantis jumps in, assuming he does.

is that number going to go up or will he wither under attacks as you know he's going to get. if i were trump, it's been a terrible couple of months politically. for obvious reasons. it's bizarre, launched to his campaign, we haven't seen him at all in public. the most predominant news stories have been the handling of documents at mar-a-lago, and his dinner with nick fuentes. even with all of that, to sit at 48% in a hypothetical power match up is not so bad. >> it's so interesting. before we get to joe biden, jen palmieri, it's true, this launch, wasn't he supposed to be out on the trail? wasn't there an announcement of events? >> south carolina. >> in february. >> early february, i think. so relatively soon, but, i mean, it is sobering because when i saw trump out on the campaign trail during the fall elections he just wasn't good. can he come back, will people continue to fall for it?

and there were really big crowds, but he himself just wasn't good. there's the question of are people done, are people saying, wow, maybe i like this guy, but he continues to make the republicans lose or wow, it's just too much, and he's crazy. but then there's another question about is he up for this. is he any good? >> a lot has changed. he's got like five legal cases swirling around him. ivanka and jared are not involved. there are people who have left his inner core. this is a man that lives on sort of being constantly massaged. yes, we agree with you, sir. i don't think the same core group is there. >> and he's not doing anything. >> the legal challenges have got to be in his head. >> that's all he talks about was his own grievances. >> i'm donald trump, i have some pep in my step over joe biden's

classified documents. and also, i think that ron desantis is way over hyped way too early. the expectations that have been set for ron desantis. >> when he hits national, could be tough. >> he's got to go national. i've heard from people he's underwhelming, maybe on stage he's a little bit better and sometimes fox news, but he's so set up for expectations that i think are impossible. >> i totally agree with you on that, we'll wait and see. as far as the documents are concerned, willie, i mean, look, we're going to let both investigations play out. there are a lot of questions that are not answered so nobody knows nothing, but i would say, go ahead, republicans, definitely squawk as loud as possible about how important the biden document investigation is. please do. because what you're doing is highlighting how important the trump mar-a-lago documents case is. this is something you wouldn't say earlier. so finally, they have sort of

come to understand the importance of the mar-a-lago document. >> and highlights the differences, a year of obstruction on the one hand. jonathan lemire, donald trump isn't going to go anywhere. he doesn't know how to go away. he won't do that. he's going to stay in this race. you and i have talked about this as well, he's not really running a presidential campaign. he said he's running for president, and yes, it's still early, and he has that event coming up in south carolina. but it feels like he can run for president from mar-a-lago, being who he is, clinging to the people who will always be in his corner, a movement or a cult or whatever it is, he knows he's got his people with him, and it seems desantis for now represents the alternative. he's candidate x. something that's not donald trump. it remains to be seen if he gets in the race, and he is the guy that will stand up to donald trump. >> there were questions in 2016 about trump, whether he just wanted to win, and didn't want

to actually be president. this time around, there are real questions about whether he wants to go through a campaign, whether he has the fire in the belly to do it. there is an event coming up in south carolina. his campaign outreach has picked up some. the e-mail blasts have started again. there have been meetings at mar-a-lago. there are baby steps that maybe show life to this campaign. as donald trump starts his, there are questions about the time line for president biden. he has said repeatedly, publicly, he intends to run in 2024. there are no official questions yet. white house aides suggested it would be march or april, two reasons. first, president obama, when he declared his reelection bid. he pegged april to do, so and by holding off, it's for fundraising purposes. we were first to report this a few weeks ago. they moved up the time line, they think soon after the state of the union coming in early

february, and now aides have reiterated no chance before the state of the union. the controversy of the classified documents won't change that. we had polling on "way too early" that suggests a lot of voters disapprove of how president biden is handling the classified documents. but, you know, here we are in january of 2023. a long way before voters go to the polls, is this going to be an issue? do you think for president biden that he's going to have to overcome? or do you think the calculation remains the same, and he can point to a legislative record that's undeniably robust, and say the documents thing is a beltway issue, and people don't care. >> i think it would be a mistake to be dismissive. most democratic voters are living in an environment and in

a world that they want to see leadership held to a higher standard. take it seriously as so far we have seen from the president and his lawyers. allow this investigation to move forward through the proper channels, and then you talk about the actual every day issues that matter to the american people. i mean, he knows that, he's a pro. that's how to run a campaign obviously. we have all seen that in action. i think that actually democratic voters are feeling pretty confident about joe biden right now. i think the fear among democrats is will trump come back from the political dead? what does that mean? does he need to be vanquished lily again? is ron desantis more powerful? i think that democratic voters are fairly obsessed with that large unknown and that joe biden, as he did actually in 202 provides if not excitement to the base, a sense of stability, and let's be honest, the country is exhausted. so that could be very appealing, i think.

>> and as mentioned, representative james clyburn, the election whisperer for joe biden says he's convinced that joe biden will run again, and i think as long as donald trump is in the picture, joe biden will be there to make sure he crushes him like a bug. i think that's his mindset. >> his mission in life, and it's not a small one. >> no, it's not a small one. a very large one. very large. coming up, we're looking at a likely outcome of the new rules package passed by house republicans. fewer ethics investigations in congress but republicans say that's not the case. we'll go through all of that next on "morning joe." we'll go through all of that next on "morning joe." there's always a fresh deal on the subway app. like this one! 50% off?! that deal's so good we don't even need an eight-time all-star to tell you about it. wait what? get it before it's gone on the subway app!

the always pan. it's 44 past the hour. a live look at the capitol as the sun tries to come up over washington. a little cloudy. the office of congressional ethics, the independent board

that investigates house lawmakers is getting an overhaul courtesy of the new house rules package passed by republicans. and opponents of the changes say the republicans just gutted the ethics office. i mean, do they even know what ethics are at this point? let's bring in the former director of the u.s. office of government ethics, walter schaub. talk about some of the worst changes you've found? you have been tracking this. >> at the project on government oversight, we and other groups have been really looking at this. the two most concerning provisions are first, they say in the new rules that all the hiring has to happen within 30 days of the rules package being passed, which means no hiring after that for two years. and then they say that there's a new eight-year limit on service on the board. the board of the office of congressional ethics has to vote to approve any actions, and they

have three out of the four democratic members who have exceeded that limit. so right from the start, you're giving one side a partisan advantage in a group that should be nonpartisan. >> so explain, first of all, ethics enforcement in congress, how it happens, and how some of these changes might get in the way of that. >> well, i think for starters we have to acknowledge that neither party has distinguished itself on government ethics in congress, and frankly, government ethics in congress is absurdly weak. it's a ridiculous process, but the only bright spot in that broken system is the office of congressional ethics, which they created in 2008 to actually do some investigations and then refer anything they found to the ethics for action, and unlike the ethics committee, the office of congressional ethics has been transparent in publishing its findings. so gutting that office is going to weaken an already weak

system. >> jonathan lemire. >> so walter, good morning, this comes of course as there's talk of george santos, and there's already been complaints that the ethics investigation into him and his repeated lies was going to take a really long time. you're familiar with this. first of all, tell us what we can expect, but also, how does the weakening of the office going to impact what santos may face and repercussions down the road for other lawmakers and their own transgressions? >> right. so santos is facing a few ethics complaints, at least one of them filed by two members who allege improprieties in his financial disclosure filings, which can actually be quite serious because false statements or missions in a financial disclosure report could lead to criminal or civil penalties. the office of congressional ethics has ten professional staff slots, meaning they can hire that many people. they only have six right now, and they need to do hiring, and it's unlikely they can finish

the rest within 30 days. it's going to really hobble their ability to conduct meaningful investigations. he'll probably still get investigated. the house ethics committee may or may not take action against him. the house ethics committee has been incredibly weak, and mccarthy needs santos' vote because he's speaker by such a thin margin, and could face a recall by his own party, so i doubt that much will happen. the real hope is that there will be an investigation that gives us some transparency. >> yeah, that is a hope. elise. >> walter, the stock trading and members of congress, it's just unbelievable that members of congress can freely trade stock, their spouses, their close relatives, why can spamberger's bill not get anywhere in congress to ban congressional stock trading? >> this is a perfect example of the congressional ethics failures because it's not a partisan issue.

you have republicans and democrats backing abigail spanberger'slland you have republicans and democrats opposing it. it tends to fall along wealth lines, and nancy pelosi last year absolutely refused to give abigail spanberger a vote on her bill, and this year kevin mccarthy had promised action in the house rules banning congressional stock trading, and we saw that didn't happen. you sort of have a conspiracy at the top of both parties to prevent any meaningful conflict of interest rules in congress, and i'm just happy to see that spanberger and her allies on both sides of the aisle are going to keep fighting for this. her bill is one that really should pass, and we're going to keep fighting for it this year. >> walter shaub, thank you so much for coming on this morning, now senior ethics fellow at the nonpartisan watchdog group the

project on government oversight, and still ahead on "morning joe," we'll go live to capitol hill for the latest in the standoff between republican lawmakers and the white house on a deal to raise the debt ceiling. plus, the shootings in new mexico are only the most recently example of politically motivated attacks against government officials. colorado's secretary of state jena griswold has been a frequent target since her election in 2018, and she joins us to talk about that troubling trend ahead on "morning joe." t trend ahead on "morning joe.

why give your family just ordinary eggs when they can enjoy the best? eggland's best. the only eggs with more fresh and delicious taste. plus, superior nutrition. because the way we care is anything but ordinary. ♪♪

my asthma felt anything but normal. a blood test helped show my asthma is driven by eosinophils, which nucala helps reduce. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. nucala is not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your asthma specialist about a nunormal with nucala.

♪ ...i'm over 45. ♪ back♪ i realize i'mgue. no spring chicken. ♪ ♪ i know what's right for me. ♪ ♪ i've got a plan to which i'm sticking. ♪ ♪ my doc wrote me the script. ♪ ♪ box came by mail. ♪ ♪ showed up on friday. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ (group) i did it my way! ♪

a live look at new york city. welcome back to morning joe. it is a few minutes before the top of the third hour. time to take a look at the morning papers. the bradenton herald has a front page feature on ron desantis' push to end covid workplace

protections. the proposed bill would penalize companies that require employees to wear masks or be vaccinated. it also adds a ban on medical boards reprimanding doctors for spreading covid misinformation. andin new jersey, the state possibly getting more than $500 million from open settlements. the state agreed to strike a deal for their roles in the opoid crisis, part of a multistate settlement. >> chattanooga times free press reports that three digit national and suicide crisis life line received over 20,000 calls from tennessee in its first six months since launching. the 988 number went live in july, it connects people in a mental health crisis with a trained counselor and it is open

24/7. and the baltimore sun has front page feature on maryland's first black governor wes moore, he was sworn in yesterday. the country's only black chief executive. he succeeded larry hogan after he left office. and perhaps just the beginning of something for wes moore. >> he is my governor. and what was interesting about that sort of amazing -- it is a tough time for democracy and so we should celebrate transitions that go as well as the larry hogan/moore transition, but in annapolis, he went to a dock there are slaves were thought to have arrived, slaves regularly arrived in annapolis. and a friend of mine who is the anne arundel county executive was emcee for the inaugural because stewart's family held

slaves. so this is an amazing story of the first black governor being elected, having the ceremony hosted by descendants of slave holders. and where he returned his commission to say i'll be a civilian after the revolutionary war, his speech is thought to be one of the most four important documents in the american cannon because it says we won't have a kill or monarchy, we'll be ruled by civilians. so pretty -- as wes moore said, is this not about the past, but a celebration of the future. so good day for democracy. >> and he also had his hand on a bible that belonged to frederick douglass. >> that is incredible. and what are you looking at today? >> i'm interested in whether

there is any energy for any others than joe biden. so taking a look. >> she wants to know what the bench is. we've been talking about that. there is a bench. >> a lot of good governors. wes moore is a good governor, governor whitmer. >> he's been in office for five minutes so let's give him some time. >> he's behind already. phil murphy, newsom, a lot of great governors. still ahead, we're following two major stories out of new mexico, what we're learning about the failed republican candidate accused of orchestrating shootings, political violence at the homes of democratic state officials. plus we'll go live to santa fe where prosecutors are expected to announce whether or not criminal charges will be filed over last year's fatal shooting on the movie set of "rust."

power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools, and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. i screwed up. mhm. and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, i got us t-mobile home internet. now cell phone users have priority over us. and your marriage survived that? you can almost feel the drag when people walk by with their phones. oh i can't hear you... you're froze-- ladies, please! you put it on airplane mode when you pass our house. i was trying to work. we're workin' it too. yeah! work it girl! woo! i want to hear you say it out loud. well, i could switch us to xfinity. those smiles. that's why i do what i do. that and the paycheck.

welcome back to the third hour of "morning joe." it is thursday, january 19th. the country will hit its borrowing limit today as the debt ceiling standoff continues on capitol hill. we'll layout what the treasury department can do until there is a deal. plus another day another strange george santos headline. the latest story about his mom and where she was during the september 11th attacks. also ahead, it has been 15 months since a deadly shooting on the set of the film "rust." we'll go through the possibilities since charges could come out later today. and a bold proposal from the biden administration could help ukraine reclaim land it lost almost nine years ago. and let's start with the debt

limit, the federal government loose a $31.4 trillion borrowing limit that will reach that today. it is the job of congress to raise that ceiling in order to continue paying america's bills. but with no legislation in sight, the treasury department will begin resorting to extraordinary measures to keep the nation from a catastrophic default. and there is any possibility of a deal? i don't think so. >> some day, but probably not this day. let's bring in michael snell here onset with us. and also our senior political reporter. and so let's start with you. janet yellen has expressed today as a day of some urgency when the country meets its debt limit. are you seeing any of that urgency on capitol hill? >> not at this moment. today is the day the u.s. hits its statutory debt limit according to a recent letter by

janet yellen. not time to panic just yet because treasury can use what it calls extraordinary measures to continue paying the bills, equivalent of looking for cash in the couches and treasury seats to be pretty good at knowing where that cash is stashed. they think it will last until early june and then they will have to act. it is difficult to see how that happens at this moment. republicans have taken control of the house, they feel empowered and they are making a host of demands in terms of budgetary concessions as a price for raising the debt limit. for the moment president biden is making to republicans the same offer that michael corleone in the gstaad father which is nothing. he believes there should be no strings attached to get it done. kevin mccarthy who is leading the push for some concessions on this has said, a debt limit increase is totally off the table. he argues that the federal

government spending should be curtailed to save programs like retire the programs from bankruptcy. he says let's find a place that we can protect medicare and social security for future generations. let's put our house in order. democrats have seized on this to attack republicans as plotting to cover medicare and social security benefits, they say that should be outside the bounds of the conversation. next step for speaker mccarthy to see what if anything can get 218 votes in the house and put pressure on senate democrats and the white house. it is not clear what that is. there is a host of conservative lawmakers who have made demands, but no specific policy proposal much less one that can get the votes. one other problem for kevin mccarthy, we saw just in the last 24 hours this back and forth unfold. congressman andy biggs said that we cannot raise the debt ceiling. democrats have carelessly spent our taxpayer money and devalued our currency. they have made their bed so they must lie in it, unquote.

the white house came back at that and said congressman biggs is dead wrong to actively support the ruin of millions of households, 401(k) plans and small businesses. you can see the battle lines developing here. hard to know how it gets resolved, but one way or another, congress will have to act or the u.s. for the first time will default on its debt. >> and of course republicans like congressman biggs finding their hawkishness again after four years under donald trump exploding the debt. thanks so much. and so michael in terms of that idea that speaker mccarthy put out there, nancy pelosi called it silliness to even entertain the idea that we'll take money away from medicare, social security and programs like that as part of a negotiation. the white house has said we're not negotiating on this, raise the debt ceiling, we don't have

anything to offer you. so where does it go given speaker mccarthy does owe those 20 people who finally gave him the speaker ship something? >> that is the thing. during speaker negotiations, we kind of foresaw the battle that would be on the horizon because of those negotiations that speaker mccarthy made with his holdouts. we have about six months until the extraordinary measures run out. that is a lot of time. but as things in washington work, you don't really make any progress until that deadline is right before you. so what happens now? it remains unclear and that is because both sides are really digging in their heels. the white house is saying it doesn't want to negotiate, it wants to raise the debt ceiling with no strings attached, but republicans are pushing for the spending cuts that they negotiated at the table with speaker mccarthy's allies during the speaker race. so no doubt that they will keep pushing for the spending cuts. there is no indication that the white house will waiver in its

stance. so we're in a very game of chicken that has massive implications and we'll have to see how it plays out. >> we talked a lot about this during the speaker battle. but explain the position kevin mccarthy is in right now. >> first of all, i want to remind people this is not new spending. i saw a stat that 25% of the debt occurred when donald trump was president. so this is spending that the congress has already agreed to, spending that is happening. and so it is not -- to try to tie spending cuts to this is shockingly disingenuous of republicans like kevin mccarthy and andy biggs. but what is so dangerous this time around, in 2011 we went through this, it is not -- kevin mccarthy is speaker because he made these programs that he would allow -- that he would fight for -- that he would not, you know, presumably not bring a bill to the floor that didn't have these kinds of cuts in

them. and i don't think he can get 218 votes for what he is talking about doing even on his side. kevin mccarthy -- we saw -- i had the same thought that you did on watching this whole thing play out that week that he couldn't get the votes to win -- just to win the position. are we seeing what is going -- the week long vote that will happen with, you know, the economy on the line because they can't get 218 votes to do something on the debt limit. and i know the white house has emissaries going to talk to moderate republicans on the house side to try to find some people that would be willing to join with democrats. democrats may have to be the responsible ones as has been in the past to get that over the line. but we have six months to figure out what 218 -- >> we'll see what happens. stay with us. we'll cover other stories here. and we're learning several new details about the failed

republican from the new mexico state house who was arrested after allegedly orchestrating a series of shootings at the homes of democratic officials. solomon pena, staunch supporter of donald trump and backer of false claims of election fraud, was denied bail yesterday during his first court hearing in albuquerque on charges that he master minded four shootings and took part in at least one after he lost his statehouse race last november. no one was hurt in the shootings. nbc news has learned that between the november location and when the shootings began in early december, pena is said to have visited the homes of multiple local officials unannounced, complaining about election fraud and what he perceived to be voter inconsistencies. joining us now, colorado secretary of state jena

griswold, she has dealt firsthand with threats ofstemmi to protect her state's election system. thank you very much for being on the show this morning. why is what happened in new mexico important, something that we should focus on? >> first off, thank you for having me on. i think that we all can be very relieved that no one was hurt in the new mexico incident. but it is a clear example of how extremist language and extreme republicans are inciting actual violence. words have effect. they incited january 6th, it led to the attack on paul pelosi, 9 kidnapping attempt of michigan governor and now these shootings. so i think that it is a clear example of what many of us have been worried about for the past years, that the extremist rhetoric that many elected officials not only spread but condone leads to attacks like

this, it leads to bullets flying through little girls' walls. >> and you can see parallels on tiny levels to january 6th. what motivated and the lead up to and bringing people together to join you in this misbe gotten journey after losing by a landslide and claiming that you didn't lose. there are parallels that can be made. and the question is, at some point accountability may help turn the corner for this country, but what we're seeing, madame secretary, is violence pervading politics up and down the ballot. >> that is exactly right. in november americans overwhelmingly rejected election denialism in the states. with that said, i think this incident shows that the fight for democracy continues. and to be clear, several elected

secretaries of state are now election deniers. over 150 sit in the house, 6 in the u.s. senate. so the fight for the soul of this country is not over. we need to recognize that words can incite violence and elected officials and election officials cannot live in an atmosphere of political violence because it does affect our ability to run free and fair elections and preserve american democracy for the american people. >> secretary griswold, we should be specific to our viewers that you know from experience, there is a man from nebraska sitting in prison right now for a year and a half to making very specific threats to you. thank god there was intervention before he carried out any of those threats. but why are you a threat, why are secretaries of you. thank god there was intervention before he carried out any of those threats. but why are you a threat, why are secretaries of state like you so threatening to so many

people, why are people threatening your life for example, what is the work that has drawn the outrage of people like the man in prison in nebraska? >> well, i could jokingly say that sometimes i show my arms in the state capitol. but in all seriousness, i think secretaries of state are the fair arbiters of elections in this country. we're there to make sure that every republican, democrat and unaffiliated voter can have their voices heard. but we are seen as part of the attack on democracy the removal of good election officials to put election deniers in their place. and that can have various effects. in colorado for example, we had a local county clerk, local election administrator, embrace the big lie and compromise her own voting systems. so what i think that we need to see from this country at both the federal and state level is, number one, clearly making it a crime to retaliate or threaten

elected officials like we've done in colorado. we also need prosecutors to step up and prosecute. we need states to stop the voter suppression and open up access. but more than just that, i think that we have to get to the root of the problem and the reason that these conspiracy theorists have been able to have such a big voice in american politics is that we need to reform our system, we need to recommit this country to democracy and show americans that to have a better future and better life, we need a strong democracy. and that includes reforming campaign finance, opening up access to the ballot box to eligible people, stopping gerrymandering and making sure the government actually delivers results for everyday people. >> and it also involves -- all americans agreeing that january 6 was a bad thing. i mean, again, i talk about the roots of trumpism or fascism,

however you want to look at it, and he has damaged democracy in so many ways. denigrating the truth. alternative facts. it has led to actual members of congress calling a riot and deadly insurrection, defaming and having -- leaving their own feces on our capitol, pretending that that was just a regular day that, you know, happened that was a tour. i mean, this is alternative facts, pervading our democracy, and pervading vulnerable minds. >> it is so upsetting because what donald trump did was he contested the notion that america's elections are free and fair. and before such an example all around the world. americans need to trust in their.

is. and so secretary, what i would ask you, you are chair of the organization of democratic secretaries of states and within colorado, you have implemented a lot of reforms such as a task force dealing with cyber intervention in an election. such as an easy way for residents to check if they are correctly registered to vote. have these reforms been happening across the nation and what needs to be done? >> we have seen the expansion of accessible elections especially during 2020 as the country quickly expanded vote by mail for all, which reduces barriers and actually increases security. because foreign and domestic hackers cannot interfere with ballots that are on paper. with that said over the last several years, we've seen a tremendous back slide for the right to vote and access. we are seeing voter suppression laws continuing to be introduced and discussed in statehouses across the country. we're seeing increased election

deniers, we're seeing attacks on democracy. and i think it is worth noting that republican elected officials who do not fully spew out lies but say, well, maybe the election was stolen or we should really investigate this conspiracy, they are part of the problem. they are part of the problem for not standing up and clearly stating facts and reassuring americans that our elections are safe and secure. >> colorado secretary of state jena griswold, thank you. and i'd add to that not just those that say maybe, i'd add those that say nothing. you have to say something. if you say nothing, you are in. have you heard, has there been any response to this case? >> lawmakers tend to not comment on issues when they are out of session, but we did see a

glimpse of the issue against threats against lawmakers. the united states capitol police released the yearly numbers to those threats. and while the numbers did decrease from 2021 and 2020, capitol police say the numbers are just way too high. and we had a lot of discussion about this as we saw the hearings for the january 6 committee under way of course during the attack on paul pelosi, there was a lot of discussion about these threats against lawmakers. it is a real issue in the country and the numbers are showing that, these other stories that we just saw -- that we're seeing play out in new mexico is underscoring that issue. and capitol police really did show that the numbers while trending down from blowing up amid january 6, they are still too high. >> so michael, what is your broader sense of in the first couple weeks of this congress? we've seen the committees now with prominent appointments for people like marjorie taylor greene and matt gaetz and jim

jordan, again deals that certainly they cut with speaker mccarthy for that vote, what is this congress going to look like as you are up on capitol hill covering it and talking to people privately, is there concern about what this will be, will it just be investigations of grievances that they have had the last several years? >> it is absolutely going to be a lot of that and we're already seeing the beginnings of it. house judiciary committee and house oversight committee led by the judiciary by jim jordan, a close ally of president trump, they have already opened investigations into the discovery of classified documents at president biden's home and old office. but while that is a fair thing for congress to look into, some of those probes are sort of moving into different directions. comer sent a letter to the president of the university of pennsylvania in recent days and started looking into different financial contributions at the university and the biden center received that have links to china. so not exactly in the purview of

an investigation into the discovery of classified documents, but nonetheless these hard line republicans have the gavels for the next two years. and before even on the campaign trail, even before they were installed in these positions, they said that they were going to be investigating different parts of the biden administration, the president's family, different administration officials, homeland secretary mayorkas could be under impeachment proceedings. so we've seen what they will come with this power. and some are saying that this was included in their commitment to america, their midterm messaging, this is why voters put them in the position, so they will carry out that duty. >> they have a long list of grievances. last hour we were talking about whether or not trump was actually campaigning. like is he having events. and i guess there is one in south carolina. whether or not he is campaigning.

sam stein, gosh, i tell him to stop. really do. not talking about sam. but anyhow, i guess he just posted something. >> yeah, he is on nontwitter but a twitter-related kd. but making a big political speech today, fake news says i'm not campaigning very hard. this is like literally minutes after we talked about it. i say they are stupid and corrupt. blah, blah, blah. so i think that there is like a nice bow to tie all this conversation around which is we talk about political violence, the inability to accept election results, we talk about the debt ceiling and demands that cuts be part of it or some sort of concession be a part of raising it, all of this is kind of tied to trump. trump had made the demands of house republicans to use the debt ceiling as leverage. he of course has been a primary

instigator of questioning election results. he has embraced to a degree the concept of political violence and of course he is lingering out there is as a potential candidate -- well, a declared candidate who has not actually started campaigning in full. biggest question mark at least for me is what happens when he does actually engage more fully, what happens when he does get back on twitter and/or get invited back on facebook. what happens when he is in even more omni present force in our political system than he is right now and he's already a big force in the system. those are the sort of big questions that i have with respect to how it faebtss the debt ceiling fight. i think it makes it a lot harder to resolve through some sort of agreed upon settlement. i think that it accelerates the idea of election denialism and could potentially accelerate the presence of political violence in our system. >> and to pick up on sam's point

there, trump has already advised republicans to use the debt ceiling as a negotiating tool. he says they should play chicken with it. there has been reporting from nbc that his team is positioning to get back on facebook, plotting a return to twitter despite him saying that he didn't want to do that. and we should note the truth social post just now just minutes after we had the conversation about his lack of a campaign, i want to flag one more line at the end. he says there will be many rallies to come. and he says of the campaign, it will be wild. so he is leaning back into the will be wild rhetoric of course we heard just before january 6. >> the infamous tweet that drove people to the capitol. and he does have plenty of time, it is just january of 2023. but he is also sending very strong signals saying that i may

ron desantis and if he gets in to the race, he said i'll handle it the way i handle things. so sounds like tony soprano in the back room of the club. >> just stop watching. sam and mica, thank you. and we have to get used to this. it is just a new reality about our age. maybe mine more than your. but this incredible reporter grew up watching us. >> i keep hearing stuff like that. >> it is okay, we love it. >> it was on at the break table every morning. >> but you were like 30 at the time. >> you were home visiting from college? >> whatever you want me to tell you, yes. >> were you under 10? pre-teen? talk to me. >> i feel like i may have to plead the fifth on this one. >> oh, willie. >> 15 years, i guess it would happen, but i'm hearing that more and more. i grew up watching you. >> it is a good thing.

>> it is. >> reminds us of how long we've been here. >> i never saw this coming. literally didn't see this coming. i didn't think that i'd be working after the age of 40. so to be 55 -- and by the way i keep thinking that i'm 56. i have do the math. have you ever done that? >> i am 56 and when i was 55, i kept thinking that i was 56. >> i'm going to have to do the math to make sure. still ahead on "morning joe," we're fact checking some of the claims that congressman george santos has made including where his mother was during the september 11th attacks. plus what we're learning about the possibility of criminal charges being filed today over the title 2021 shooting on the set of the film "rust." and coming up in our fourth hour, actress laverne cox is our guest.

next on behind the series... let me tell you about the greatest roster ever assembled. the monster, the outlaw... and you can't forget about the boss. it wasn't just a roster. it was a menu. the subway series. the greatest menu of all time. nothing. nothing. absolutely, nothing. it really is something. as an expedia member, you can save up to 30%

when you add a hotel to your flight. so you can have a bit more money, to do even less. because you've got a whole lot of nothing to do and absolutely nowhere to be.

why are 93% of sleep number sleepers very satisfied with their bed? maybe it's because you can adjust your comfort and firmness on either side. your sleep number setting. to help relieve pressure points and keep you both comfortable all night. save $1000 on the sleep number 360 special edition smart bed queen now only $1999. only for a limited time. we're here today to set the record straight about dupuytren's contracture. surgery is not your only treatment option. people may think their contracture has to be severe to be treated, but it doesn't. visit findahandspecialist.com today to get started. [ marcia ] my dental health was not good. i had periodontal disease, and i just didn't feel well. but then i found clearchoice. [ forde ] replacing marcia's teeth with dental implants at clearchoice was going to afford her that permanent solution. [ marcia ] clearchoice dental implants gave me the ability to take on the world. i feel so much better, and i think that that is the key.

there are new questions on when and where congressman george santos' mother was when she died. the lawmaker previously tweeted his mother died as a result of the september 11th terrorist attacks writing, 9/11 claimed my mother's life. that was back this 2021. but nowly unearthed immigration records obtained by nbc news show that his mother was living in rio de janeiro on september 11th, 2021. she was admitted in to the united states in april of between you 3 and had not been in the country since 1999. despite that, his campaign website says george's mother was in her office in the south tower

on september 11 when the horrific events unfolded. she survived the tragic events but passed away a few years later when she lost her battle to cancer. in a separate tweet from santos commemorating his mother's death, he writes that she passed in 2016. santos denied the allegations. in a text message. but has not re34r50ied to a request for comment from nbc news. not really allegations. just statements of fact that is hard to dispute. i mean, pick your lie, but this one is particularly appalling to sort of make 9/11 a part of your personal story. >> also to like make your mother's death part of your story. to lie about your mother. and when i heard this, i thought maybe he was making tangential tie like maybe his mother was, you know, in the area of ground zero and she got cancer later or something. but, no, he said that she was at her desk in her office.

so it is like the degree of specificity he puts in his lies, it is really daring. >> and the republican party has set the table for exactly this situation. and their lack of action at this point shows that they are comfortable exactly here with someone who his entire life, candidacy, campaign, every detail, social, personal, professional, is a lie. and that is what they have got. and they sit there bumbling. the local republican party is horrified. you can ask the questions as to how it didn't happen in the campaign. who ran against him? robert zimmerman. are you kidding me some what happened? but malpractice there too. but these republicans are sitting in this big barrel of lies. and they are comfortable. >> the delusion again is mainstream, it is connected. this is all connected.

if you are okay with the election denial, you somewhat are okay with this. mom died in 9/11/the guy, you know, he stole $3,000 from a new jersey veteran, some dog couldn't get cancer treatment and the dog dies. it is sick twisted business. >> and easy fodder to start laughing and make fun of because some of the lies are crazy. i'm just going to say we need to really work hard on not doing that because this gentleman is extremely disturbed. and he is serving new in congress. he is not fit for the position. not even close. and he is disturbed. there is something -- he is not well at all. there is something pathological about him. and it is dangerous not just for the people he is serving, the job he's doing, but his own personal safety. >> think of the signal it sends to future candidates.

just say what you have to say to get elected and you will get a pass from your own party. but there are legal questions though about fundraising and things like that which could i think some republicans if you talk to them privately are hoping that the courts take care of him so that they don't have to deal with the problem. what legal exposure does santos have? >> right now most likely it might relate to his political action committee, his fundraising entity that may not have been registered. so he could run into s.e.c. problems with that. but the vast majority of the lies are probably not actionable, just boosting your resume, it is when you get in to that fund raising that there are so many laws that deal with that that he could get into trouble. but just as a thought, we've all known habitual liars. usually it is a distant uncle kell or as criminal defense attorney, i've had a steady stream in my life a long time. but normally you take that

person and ostracise him, you talk about him behind his back. he said he invented the frying pan or whatever. right? now it is not about someone like george santos, it is about people who are willing to elect him and not look in too deeply. we used to completely shun habitual liars. don't worry confronting them because they won't change. but now people aren't willing to accept that. >> to your point that it is with the people who elected him, i have seen some great reporting on the aftermath where constituents are talking about how upset they are that this fraudster is able to have their seat in congress and that now they played a role. and it falls into the leadership of the republican party. is it acceptable to have a guy who is a scam con artist who has lied, who has all of this financial irregularity just

following him around, are you okay with that. coming up, in the words of one pentagon official, the juice isn't really worth of squeeze. he's talking about the potential consequences of the u.s. sending long range missiles to ukraine. something russia has warned against. admiral will be weighing in on that just ahead. ral will be wein that just ahead. ♪ this feels so right... ♪ adt systems now feature google products like the nest cam with floodlight, with intelligent alerts when a person or familiar face is detected. sam. sophie's not here tonight. so you have a home with no worries. brought to you by adt.

♪ acoustic soul music throughout ♪ ♪ acoustic soul music wthroughout ♪ . ♪ acoustic soul music throughout ♪ ♪ acoustic soul music throughout ♪ for adults with generalized myasthenia gravis who are positive for acetylcholine receptor antibodies, it may feel like the world is moving without you. but the picture is changing, with vyvgart. in a clinical trial, participants achieved improved daily abilities with vyvgart added to their current treatment. and vyvgart helped clinical trial participants achieve reduced muscle weakness.

vyvgart may increase the risk of infection. in a clinical study, the most common infections were urinary tract and respiratory tract infections. tell your doctor if you have a history of infections or if you have symptoms of an infection. vyvgart can cause allergic reactions. the most common side effects include respiratory tract infection, headache, and urinary tract infection. picture your life in motion with vyvgart. a treatment designed using a fragment of an antibody. ask your neurologist if vyvgart could be right for you. ♪♪ giorgio, look! the peanut butter box is here. ralph, that's the chewy pharmacy box with our flea and tick meds. it's not peanut butter. ♪ the peanut butter box is here ♪ i'm out. pet prescriptions delivered to your door. chewy. i'd like to thank our sponsor liberty mutual. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. contestants ready? go!

only pay for what you need. jingle: liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. business can happen anytime, anywhere. o so help yours thrive and. stay connected with the comcast business complete connectivity solution. it's the largest, fastest, reliable network. advanced gig speed wifi. and cyberthreat protection. starting at just $49.99 a month. plus, you can save up to 60% a year when you add comcast business mobile. or, ask how to get up to a $750 prepaid card. complete connectivity. one solution, for wherever business takes you. comcast business. powering possibilities.

there is going to be a decision on whether any charges will be filed in the 2021 deadly shooting on the new mexico set of the film "rust." the charges will be revealed today. the district attorney and special prosecutors say that they will release a written statement with their decision this morning according to a spokesperson for the d.a.'s office, quote, regardless of the district attorney's decision, the announcement will be a solemn occasion made in a manner keeping with the office's commitment to upholding the integrity of the judicial

process and respecting the victim's family. melina hutchins was working when the gun went off killing her and wounding the film's director. according to documents the first assistant director handed baldwin the gun announcing that it was safe to use and claims that he did not know how live ammunition got onset. so first of all, is he clear at this point and what is your gut on just how cases like there are -- i mean, you never point a gun at someone is the bottom line, but could baldwin be charged, are they looking at the people who prepared the gun? >> he could be charged. well, he should not be charged ultimately. i believe that there will be charges. there are up to four other people that the new mexico d.a. has been indicating that they may charge. they asked for $600,000 in funding to start -- to investigate the case which

implies that they are looking towards charging someone. but it would be unwise to charge alec baldwin with any kind of homicide. and the only homicide that you really could charge him with is the version that is not intentional because we know this was not an intentional act. so that pretty much leaves involuntary manslaughter which requires criminal negligence. and here in almost every other case you could make the argument that somebody pointing a gun is recklessly disregarding a risk. but i would argue if you were defending him, and if he is charged, that he didn't believe -- this is the rare occasion that somebody holding a gun can lawfully believe they don't have a gun. they might as well have a block of wood. it is a prop. it is a toy. so that even pulling the trigger and pointing it at a person, if somebody assures you that you are not holding a gun, i can't see how you get to criminal negligence in holding something that you don't believe is a gun.

so if they choose to charge alec baldwin, it could only be some version of criminal negligence or recklessness and then i think he gets acquitted the trial. it is too close a call. prosecutors generally shouldn't bring cases that they think that they did just get charged, they should believe that they can prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. and i don't believe that there is beyond the reasonable doubt here. there are charges against the first assistant director, armorer. and folks may remember decades ago brandon lee, son of bruce lee, was killed in a very similar accident and the conclusion by law enforcement was that this was not any one person's negligence. a bunch of really bad decisions. >> exactly. >> -- led to a projectile being stuck in a gun which was supposed to be a dummy round. so i think if that is any precedent, they may conclude that there was a bunch of little acts of negligence and no one person was criminally responsible. and yet i still think someone is getting charged today.

>> when you look at -- what i don't understand is just with basic gun safety, but also on the set of a movie, there are procedures that you go through to prepare the gun, hand it over, communicate that it is, you know, ready to use. and then the actor or actress also has regulations that they have to follow. so i agree with you, i mean, negligence at best, but at the same time, i wonder why only people who prepare the gun are -- if they are charged, what about the person holding it, they are supposed to follow certain regulations as well. >> he said he did. and that he just wasn't given the right command. they are supposed to tell you if it was a hot gun. >> but you are never supposed to point a gun at a person. >> but it is not a gun. that is what people believe. >> even on a set of a movie, it is not pointed at somebody? >> yes, and so if they rely on that standard of care, because

to prove recklessness, you have to prove two things, that your conduct deviated from the standard of care and also that you disregarded a known risk. so if we assume that alec baldwin believed that he was not holding the gun, even that jen prohibition that, hey, you shouldn't point anything that looks like a gun at somebody, i still think there is reasonable doubt there. everyone will concede that alec baldwin thought it was a cold gun. so for trying to get beyond a reasonable doubt, highest standard in the law, i don't think that you get there because there is going to be reasonable doubt. even if alec baldwin may have violated the first rule of gun safety, they ever point a gun at anything you don't want to destroy, alec baldwin could take the stand -- and by the way he will be a fantastic witness because his entire life he's been persuading people as an actor and doing well at it. he's already given a ton of interviews. some probably hurt him.

some inconsistent statements. but i think that he wins. >> and he also says i didn't point a gun at somebody, i pointed a prop, a toy at somebody. i've done it a thousand times in other movies. and for some reason this one was hot and it is not my fault. >> we'll be watching today if any charges happen. and danny cevallos, thank you very much. coming up, we'll speak with the president's top economic adviser live from the white house. brian deese weighs in as congress is certain to miss today's deadline to raise the debt limit. limit ♪ ...i'm over 45. ♪ ♪ i realize i'm no spring chicken. ♪ ♪ i know what's right for me. ♪ ♪ i've got a plan to which i'm sticking. ♪ ♪ my doc wrote me the script. ♪ ♪ box came by mail. ♪ ♪ showed up on friday. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪ cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk.

false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ (group) i did it my way! ♪

if you're turning 65 soon or over 65 and planning to retire... now's the time to learn more about an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan from unitedhealthcare and get help protecting yourself from the out-of-pocket costs medicare doesn't pay. because the time to prepare is before you go on medicare. don't wait. get started today. call unitedhealthcare for your free decision guide.

will end, but we have to make sure it will end wit i don't think there's any other choice. if russia would win the war, then we would only see decades of this kind of behavior ahead

of us. i think other countries are looking very closely what is happening now in ukraine, and if russia would u win, then it wou send a message that you can invade another country, you can attack another country, and you can gain from that. >> the prime minister of fin land promising to support ukraine as long as necessary and is calling on other word leaders to dor the same. she made the comments tuesday at the world economic forum in davos. meanwhile, the "new york times" reporting that several u.s. officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity said the biden administration is considering supplying ukraine with the power needed to strike the southern ukrainian region of crimea even if it runs the risk of escalating the war. russia has occupied the crimean peninsula for nearly ten years. according to "the times" those officials say this administration feels if ukraine

can make russia's grim on the region appear weaker, it will bolster ukraine's leverage in potential future negotiations. joining us now, co-author of that report, pentagon correspondent for "the new york times" helene cooper. incredible reporting. what do you think the strategy is dhere, especially as it pertains to dealing with vladimir putin and his ad ever-changing mental state? >> good morning, mika. thanks for having me. you've seen the biden administration and nato allies slowly coming around for the past year. it's been almost a year now of this war in ukraine to supply ukraine with more and more offensive weapons. remember afe year ago when peop barely -- when united states officialses barely wanted to adt that we were giving ukraine stingers and javelins?

i remember getting in trouble with one story i wrote where i wrote that -- i used the word stingers and that was something that administration officials weren't even acknowledging at that point. we've come a long way since then. we've gone from himars now, we're n looking at advanced roct systems. and just two weeks ago you saw president biden agree to provide ukraine with 50 bradley fighting vehicles. this is -- bradley is a personal -- is a troop carrier, but it's also mounted with a 25-millimeter anti-tank gun an and what ak bradley does is it takes -- it's an offensive weapon that takes troops to the fight. the whole point of the bradlees is to help ukraine to go on the offensive, to take territory back, and the administration officials we talked to who

months ago wouldn't even want to think about the idea of using american weaponry to help ukraine target crimea now say they are considering doing that. they've already done it as far as you look -- as far as when you look at the so-called much-ballyhooed land bridge that connects crimea with rostov in russia. it goes through mariupol, and the bradley fighting vehicles can certainly take ukrainian troops towards that fight. but the himars that the united states -- and these are also advanced systems, the himars we've begun giving them have now put that crimea land bridge in target, in range for ukrainian troops. so it's this steady loosening of the self-imposed handcuffs that the biden administration had put on themselves, and part of this

is because there is more -- there's more of a belief that vladimir putin has tried to make crimea a red line and said you can't touch crimea. the reality is crimea is ukraine. i want ice not russia. the united states doesn't recognize crimea as being russian, and there's this growing belief within the administration that the escalation fears that they had, they have sort of stopped them from helping ukraine to target crimea may not be as worrisome as they thought. it's not that they're not there at all. there's still worry that vladimir putin could escalate but the worry he would escalate against nato as opposed to escalating against ukraine is diminished. coming up, we'll speak with new mexico's secretary of state about the alleged plot to shoot up the homes of four democratic officials in albuquerque.

i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are looking up ♪ ♪ i've got symptom relief ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements at 4 weeks. skyrizi is the first and only il-23 inhibitor for crohn's that can deliver both clinical remission and endoscopic improvement. the majority of people on skyrizi achieved long lasting remission at 1 year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms,

had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. ask your gastroenterologist how you can take control of your crohn's with skyrizi. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. ♪ ♪ this... is a glimpse into the no-too-distant future of lincoln. ♪ ♪ it's what sanctuary could look like... feel like... sound like... even smell like. more on that soon. ♪ ♪ the best part? the prequel is pretty sweet too. ♪ ♪ next on behind the series... the boss upended the whole roster. here's this young sub from jersey, brimming with confidence. and meatballs. it had a lot of attitude-

for a rookie. and a lot of pepperoni. the subway series. the greatest menu of all time.

it is just before the top of the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast. i've got to get used to this. it's the fourth hour, stephanie ruhle. you're here joining us on the fourth hour. >> i'm familiar with that hour. >> you host "the 11th hour." you're familiar with this hour. 9:00 a.m. on the east coast where we have stephanie ruhle with us in the house. elise jordan of course. we'll start in a moment talking to stephanie about what will happen to the economy when the u.s. hits its debt limit today and other questions surrounding the economy as well. we'll also ask the president's top economic adviser brian deese about the negotiations with house republicans. plus, ukraine's president

zelenskyy vows that ukraine will retake crimea and presses the west for more firepower to do so. is the biden administration ready to help with that in a full-throated robust way? also ahead, a live report from new mexico where this morning we will get a decision on whether charges will be filed in the deadly shooting on the set of alec baldwin's film "rust." a lot going on this morning, willie. >> our top story is also out of the state of new mexico. new details about that failed republican candidate in the new mexico statehouse who feels arrested after allegedly orchestrating a spate of shootings at democrat officials' home. he's a firm supporter of former president trump and a backer of false claims of 'v election fraud. he made his first appearance in court in albuquerque yesterday. vaughn hillyard has the latest. >> reporter: yet to enter a plea, appearing virtually before

a judge, who ordered him to stay behind bars. >> you'll be held without bond. . >> just two months after losing his election for the statehouse, he's being accused of orchestrating a plan to shoot at the homes of four democratic officials. pena lost his race decisively by nearly 50 percentage points but falsely claimed it was ringed. this ring video shows him approaching what appears to be the home of debbie o'malley, one of the county commissioners responsible for certifying elections. >> can i speak with debbie o'malley? >> reporter: he then drove to her new residence with what he claimed was evidence showing he hadn't actually lost. >> there are several here. as a matter of fact, one came very close to the porch. >> reporter: one month later, o'malley says her home was shot in the middle of the night. >> it saddens me that this is happening in our country. this narrative of, you know, we're cheated, we were -- everything was rigged, there's

fraud. come on. you know? i mean, i grew up with the value set that if you lost, you know, you accepted that with grace. >> reporter: arrest documents detail text messages between several alleged paid shooters and pena sent after the election exchanging the lawmakers' addresses. authorities say an unnamed informant told them pena joined in the fourth incident, frustrated. pena "wanted them to aim lower and shoot around 8:00 p.m. because occupants would more likely not being laying down." this is not pena's first arrest. nbc news has learned pena served nearly seven years in state prison in connection with a series of smash and grab burglaries. last fall, about two months before the election, a judge ruled he was able to run for office despite his status as a convicted felon. >> nbc's vaughn hillyard reporting from new mexico. joining us now is new mexico's democratic state maggie toulouse oliver. since election conspiracies took

off around 2020, she's had to leave her home for weeks at a time and remain under state police, protection after her home address and photo were posted as under "enemies of the people." you're not particularly surprised by these shootings. >> i wish i could say that i were, but i do think what's really important is that we acknowledge that we have moved past the point of rhetoric, complaints, lies about the election process, you know, sort of fueling, you know, toxic behavior. and we have now come to a point obviously, january 6th, that was a huge demonstration of political violence, and now we're seeing it followed through into people at the local level who are so gripped and so bought

into the concept that our elections are rigged, of course a total lie, totally fake. but they're willing to take action in the form of political violence. this is tremendously scary and it has to stop. >> mika, this is the second secretary of state we've had on the last hour with threats against their lives. >> yep. >> secretary griswold of colorado, jocelyn benson in michigan has had threats against her. it's happen across the country. >> what happened to gretchen whitmer, what happened on january 6th. we could go on and on and on. what's the common denominator here? donald j. trump. in new mexico what we're seeing here is a little mini january 6th with the trump playbook being used. an election is lost by a landslide. the guy doesn't like that he lost so he plays the trump playbook and starts denying his loss and then gets people riled up to do violence. that's the trump playbook. and to be honest, there's members of the house, there's

different politicians now who have security. they didn't have security before trump. full disclosure -- i didn't have security before trump. i have to live with security now. let's be honest about what's going on here and about the tlepts we're facing. to that, maggie, i ask where is this going and what's it going to take to turn the corner? >> well, i think two things. first and foremost in our state, as many other states are doing, both election officials and now public officials in general, we have to take a very strong proactive stance to protect our public officials. so i am going to be working with my colleagues and the state legislature to see what we can do to tighten up protections, to make sure that our personal, private information stays private, that our homes stay secure, that we also ensure that there are increased penalties for even contemplating this kind of behavior moving forward, because again, this individual who was just arrested was

calling for me to be hung in the town square late last year around election time. so we know now that when we see these patterns of violent political rhetoric, they can turn into actions. but we also need to continue to raise the call for this rhetoric to stop, for the lies and the mis and disinformation to stop because we know it is radicalizing people. >> we need republicans to reject this, not just once in a while when it gets a little scary. on january 6th, kevin mccarthy. we need them to completely, wholeheartedly reject this, and we need other republicans who are saying nothing to say something, because at this point, that's just as bad. elise, we know when someone is threatening to hang someone in the town square, they mean it. we know that now. >> what we saw on january 6th, they brought a noose to the capitol talking about hanging mike pence. >> right. >> it can't get any more scary

than that. i would just ask the secretary, how has this impacted election administration in your state? do you see volunteers who hesitate now to come and help with local elections? you had such a lovely thing, so many people volunteering their time to help preserve democracy, and their lives can be threatened for it. >> we are seeing changes. and it is a challenge, and it is a challenge to recruit and keep those folks. and not even just because of the threats of violence but because of the harassment, you know, the accusations of committing, you know, election fraud and rigging elections, right. even just that alone, to say nothing of the threats and potential for actual violence has really put a dampening effect on this. for our democracy to continue to thrive, much less survive, we need those folks. we need every single person to help us ensure a healthy

democracy. >> new mexico secretary of state maggie toulouse oliver, thank you for using your voice. we appreciate your coming on the show this morning. so, the united states is expected to reach its debt ceiling today, which means the country's borrowing limit will be officially maxed out. this will force the treasury department to take extraordinary measures to keep the nation's payments going through early june and to prevent the u.s. from defaulting. as of this morning, there is little progress on capitol hill to resolve the problem. the white house to, senate democrats, and congressional republicans are all refusing to budge on their stances. we have stephanie here with us to talk about this. so who's going to blink? how is it going to happen? >> this has to get resolved. it's extraordinary when you look at the amount of misinformation out there. just yesterday e andy biggs, a republican out of arizona, we're not going to stand for this reckless spending, this isn't

going to happen anymore. what are we talking about? this is if you spent the entire month running up your credit card bill and when the bill shows up you say, you know what, i'm not going to pay because i've decided to become fiscally responsible. you've decided to become a hardcore deadbeat. the last budget was passed on a bipartisan basis. if republicans block this, it will be an economic disaster. all sorts of republicans know this. you saw senator kennedy yesterday say, are you kidding me? you cannot forget to pay the band if you have a party. imagine all the corporate donors. remember who loves to back republicans? big, enormous rich people. they are furious. you don't think mitch mcconnell's phone is ringing off the hook? you don't think kevin mccarthy, you don't think they're saying what in god's name are you doing? this will be a disaster. >> so who's in the way of

preventing this disaster? >> far-right republicans who are just saying i want to stop this, i don't want this to happen. remember, all you need are five republicans in congress who potentially represent one of 18 of joe biden's districts to realize, um, i better vote with the democrats here or i could likely lose my seat in 2024. >> what are you hearing from wall street? i hear the word clowns a lot, but they don't have the little bang flag. >> this is an absurd clown show. you're starting to see in the last few days wall street analysts bracing for this. no one wants to see this happen. the united states is, you know, the best house on a bad street because we are living in an economically complicated time. marjorie taylor greene and matt gaetz can't possibly hold up the economy, and if they do, it will be on them. >> are there any concessions that republicans could get from this that the far right could achieve? is there anything that's

semipractical within their wish list? >> who knows? we don't know their wish list. they like to go on twitter and squawk don't we want a balanced budget? they have not articulated what they're looking for. are we going to see cuts to meld care and medicaid and social security? last i checked, senior citizens in florida damn well care about their social security and they won't feel good about voting for republicans if they lose that. >> we've learned when republicans threaten something crazy, they mean it. so what happens if there's no deal and they hold tight? >> then the u.s. could go into default as early as june, and that's when we have to make decisions about what bills we're going to pay first. are we going to pay out veterans benefits, social security? are we going to pay our lenders? are we really going to be in that position that it's going to be like the end of the month and you say which bill am i going to pay? is it my heat bill, my cable

bill? it's crazy we're in this position. we shouldn't be. >> director of the white house national economic council brian deese. good morning. the white house has said we're not here to negotiate raising the debt ceiling. raise the thing. is that your position this morning? is there anything kevin mccarthy could say that would get you to a negotiating table? >> look, the president is not going to negotiate around the full faith and credit of the united states, and for a lot of the reasons stephanie outlined. this is not about new spending, not about new initiatives. this is about the united states meeting its bedrock commitments as country and as a nation. and the united states commitment that we honor our obligations is the bedrock of stability in our economy and frankly stability in the global economy as well. it's not a conversation we should even be having because even the prospect you would put the full faith and credit of the

united states government on the negotiating table could do real damage to our economy. we've seen this in past instances. we don't want to do that as well. look, we're making an extraordinary amount of economic progress right now. we saw unemployment claims come out this morning, lowest in decades. the unemployment rate is the low nest 50 years. the number of people with health insurance is the highest it's been in this country. inflation is coming down, real wages are going up. we're making progress and we need to keep that economic progress going and not have the specter of doing something unthinkable, of actually defaulting or the united states not honoring those obligations get in the way of this economic progress. >> even as you're talking, we're looking at red numbers early on wall street. what do you say to reassure markets and reassure americans you'll find a way out of this, that republicans will come to agreement to raise the debt ceiling and there won't be this potential sort of crisis and catastrophe stephanie just laid

out? >> yeah. i'd say three things. first, this has happened time and time again. you put the graphic up earlier. since 1960, congress has acted 78 times with republicans in the white house, with democrats in the white house, to honor our basic obligation. second, stephanie noted there are scores of reasonable republicans and democrats who understand the stakes here, who understand the consequence and who understand that when it comes to the full faith and credit of the united states, we have to be serious and we have to be responsible. and third is that that economic progress that we are making should help middle-class families, businesses that are thinking about investing, make this period of time, even facing an uncertain global economic environment, make the united states relatively well positioned to keep that progress going. for all those reasons i think we will as a country meet our obligations. we always have.

that's what we need to do this year as well. and that's where our position is going to stay. >> brian, if we don't, it will be because a group of republicans won't come to the table and agree to raise this debt limit. and everyone at this table will know who's to blame. but the average american might not. is the white house prepared for that reputational low if we end up in an economically disastrous situation, and people say oh, who's in the white house, it's joe biden? >> we've made extraordinary progress in the last two years with joe biden in the white house. this week is the two-year anniversary of when he spoke to the nation and outlined an economic strategy to not only beat the pandemic crisis but recover stronger as a nation. since that period, we've seen the strongest period of job growth, unemployment down to a 50-year low, inflation is coming down, real wages are going up. we're making progress in this economy in no small part because

joe biden has worked with republicans and democrat for an economic agenda to make the united states a place where businesses want to invest, create jobs, center their economic activity for the long term. that's the story of the progress we've made over the last two years. that's what we'll stay focused on. we'll stay focused on i want -- implements that legislation and like congress in the past, this congress has a basic set of obligation, none more fundamental than maintaining the full faith and celt of the united states. and nobody should be putting on the table and even suggesting that that is up frp debate or up for negotiation. we'll continue to make that clear. i think that this president has been clear that economic stability, recover, and working on behalf of the american people is where he is and that, you know, there is an extreme element that wants to pursue chaos, but we're going to work

to overcome that and work to build on these economic gains. i think and hope that will be increasingly clear to the american people as well. >> director of the white house national economic council, brian deese, thank you very much. stephanie, i've tailor made the next news stories for you. >> all right. southwestern airlines pilots hold a vote on they give their union the power to call a strike. they've been in negotiation for years. pilots are calling for better work rules and schedules. it's set for may 1st. if it passes, the strike would not happen immediately. it would need clearance from the national mediation board. this airline has seen a lot of struggles lately. >> they sure have. listen, it's complicated. we have a labor shortage. we have unions saying we simply need better work conditions and we're limping at a time people are trying to get on planes and want the cheapest flights they can. i get that pete buttigieg is

putting pressure on these airline companies, but these are companies that have to rely on human capital. it's hard to say who's to blame. it's difficult. >> to your point, the ceo of united airlines this morning said there will be more disruptions for travelers. scott kirby says the industry is dealing with a shortage of pilots and workers as well as outdated technology that cannot handle today's volume. he said arums that are operating like it's still 2019 will continue to struggle. it won't be fun traveling in the next couple of months. >> guess what? sounds like we need to spend on infrastructure. we have the money to do it. unfortunately, that takes time. >> gun sales are dropping across the country. companies are reporting weaker seams after seeing a boom during the pandemic. one of the largest manufacturers, strum lugar and company reported a 28% drop in sales in the fiscal third quarter. its revenue was down nearly $40 million compared to the same period in 2021.

>> goodish. >> i guess. exactly. stephanie ruhle, thank you. good note to end on. >> goodish. >> a goodish note. much more on "the 11th hour" week nights on msnbc. thanks for coming in so early. coming up this morning, a live report from new mexico ahead of an announcement by prosecutors on possible charges for the deadly shooting on the set of "rust." plus, ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskiy is vowing to take back the russian-controlled territory of crimea, and the biden administration may help them do it. ooh, we're firing up the chewy app. can't say no to these prices! hmm, clumping litter? resounding yes! salmon paté? love that for me! essentials?

check! ooh, we have enough to splurge on catnip toys! we did it, i feel so accomplished. pet me, please! okay that's enough. now back to me time. luv you! great prices. happy pets. chewy. in one second, sara yes! will get a job offer somewhere sunnier. relocating in weeks. weeks? yeah, weeks. gotta sell the house. don't worry, sell to opendoor, and move on your schedule. yes! request a cash offer at opendoor.com

hi, we've both got a big birthday coming up. so we have a lot of questions about medicare plans. we've got a lot of answers! how can i help? well for starters, do you include hearing benefits? how about a plan with dental, vision and hearing benefits? i sure like the sound of that! then how does a $0 monthly plan premium sound? ooooooooh! [laughs] if you're new to medicare, call 1-888-65-aetna. we'll walk you through all your coverage and benefit options to help find the right plan for you. ♪ ...i'm over 45. ♪ ♪ i realize i'm no spring chicken. ♪ ♪ i know what's right for me. ♪ ♪ i've got a plan to which i'm sticking. ♪ ♪ my doc wrote me the script. ♪ ♪ box came by mail. ♪ ♪ showed up on friday. ♪ ♪ i screened with cologuard and did it my way! ♪

cologuard is a one-of-a kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45 plus at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. ♪ (group) i did it my way! ♪

9:24 on the east coast. a decision on whether charges will be filed in the deadly 2021

shooting on the new mexico set of alec baldwin's film "rust" will be revealed less than two hours from now. the district attorney and special prosecutor say they will rereese a written statement with their decision this morning. halyna hutchins was working as the movie cinematographer when the gun baldwin was rehearsing with went off, killing her and wounding the film's director. according to documents, the first assistant director handed baldwin the gun announcing it was safe to use and claims he did not know how live ammunition got on to the set. let's bring in nbc news correspondent vaughn hillyard. he's live for us in santa fe, new mexico. what more do we know about what might happen today? >> reporter: the negligence that led to the death of halyna hutchins in 2021, it runs deep, not as deep as the tragedy in the death of the lead cinematographer in the making of this western movie, "rust." but the district attorney and

the special prosecutor they brought on to help with this case are going to determine the extent to which the level of negligence on the part of alec baldwin as well as crew members and the assistant and the director on set that day should lead to criminal charges of negligence and other charges here. we are expecting this decision to come down in about the next 90 minutes here from the district attorney and the special prosecutor. of course it would go before a court here. but the levels of complexity in this case are difficult. the santa fe sheriff's department investigated this case for about a year and a half before october, sending over its findings to the district attorney to decide on these charges. you have involved in this case of course alec baldwin here, who was the individual who was carrying that colt 45. he was on set when he said he was practicing a cross draw and he pulled the gun out of the holster and he says he never pulled the trigger. instead, when he dropped -- when he dropped a part of the gun

there, the shot was fired. now, the fbi forensic team that was brought on by the santa fe sheriff's department to investigate that particular weapon said there was no way that the gun could have fired without pulling the trigger. alec baldwin is defiant in denying he ever pulled that trigger. but instead there have been counterlawsuits ever since the october 2021 incident. between the likes of baldwin and others that were on set. of course there was the armorer there, who was the one that put the bullets -- the ammunition into the firearm. now, she, the lead armorerer, has filed the counterlawsuit against the supplier of the ammunition saying there should have never been any live ammunition near the set and only dummies should have been available to her to put into the gun. then there was the assistant director involved in this case who took that actual weapon after it had been loaded with the ammunition and declared it on set to be a cold gun, then handed it to alec baldwin.

this is a complicated case here, and ultimately it will be up to the district attorney and the special prosecutor whether any charges will be brought. we know matt hutchins, the husband of halyna hutchins, said it's inexplicable that his wife was lost. despite settling a lawsuit with alec baldwin and the producers, it is up to the court system on whether there will be any criminal consequences to anybody involved in this case. >> we'll hear from those prosecutors in just a short time. nbc's vaughn hillyard live in santa fe, new mexico, thanks so much. mika, our legal analyst was here earlier saying for context he'd be very surprised if there were charges brought against alec baldwin himself here. the only thing he could imagine is a negligent homicide, involuntary manslaughter, things like that.

but he would be shocked if charges were brought against baldwin himself. >> there's a chance -- they're announcing today if there are charges. maybe nobody, maybe everybody. still ahead, chief international analyst for nbc news, retired four-star navy admiral james stavridis joins us. a lot to cover with the admiral on the war in ukraine including a plan to reclaim crimea getting some momentum inside the white house. (in a whisper) if we use kevin's college fund, we can afford this house. the house whisperer! this house says use realtor.com to find options within your budget. good luck young man. realtor.com to each their home.

millions have made the switch from the big three to the best kept secret in wireless: xfinity mobile. realtor.com that means millions are saving hundreds a year with the fastest mobile service. and now, get the best price for two lines of unlimited. just $30 per line. there are millions of happy campers out there. and this is the perfect time to join them... see how easy it is to save hundreds a year

on your wireless bill over t-mobile, verizon, and at&t talk to our switch squad at your local xfinity store today. age is just a number, and mine's unlisted. try boost® high protein with 20 grams of protein for muscle health versus 16 grams in ensure® high protein. boost® high protein. now available in cinnabon® bakery-inspired flavor. learn more at boost.com/tv get ready to say those five little words. we're talking about... rooty tooty fresh 'n fruity

yep, it's back. for a limited time. the six dollar rooty tooty fresh 'n fruity combo. 2 eggs, 2 bacon strips, and 2 fruit topped pancakes. only from ihop. 32 past the hour. moments ago, ukraine president zelenskyy addressed the world economic forum for the second time this week where he vowed to retake the region of crimea from russian control, saying in part, give us your weapons, we will return what is ours. "the new york times" reports several officials said the biden administration is considering supplying ukraine with the power needed to strike the region of crimea. according to "the times," those officials say the administration feels that if ukraine can make russia's grip on the region appear weaker, it will bolster ukraine's leverage in potential

future negotiations. joining us now, retired four-star navy admiral james stavridis. he's chief international analyst for nbc news. first of all, do you agree with that, admiral? >> i agree that the administration should do everything they can to put the totality of tools in the hands of the ukrainians so they can have the maximum leverage when this thing comes to a negotiation because it will probably sometime this year, just giving the terrible burn rate on both sides of those equations. so, yes, we should provide them more. and i think, you know, we're very focused on davos, i understand that, but the important meeting this week in europe is at ramstein air force base where all of the nations are coming together to decide exactly what tools we're putting in the hands of the ukrainians. top of my list if i'm president

zelenskyy, tanks, big ones that can go straight at the russians, crack that land bridge that connects russia to crimea. that's how you get the military leverage to go after crimea. >> okay. so you think they'll get them. and also just you have said many months ago on this show that it was going to be a long, ugly winter, and that this was going to drag out. having said that, given what we're looking at now in these latest moves and the need for tanks, is the u.s. and nato strategy, is it going well? >> it is going well, particularly on the land war side of this thing, mika. on the air war side, we still see russia having a great deal of ability to reach out and strike ukrainian targets in the fashion of war criminal attacks against civilians. we've seen that again and again. but on the ground, it's going well for the ukrainians. here is specifically what we should be talking about in terms of these tanks. we need to put the leopard tank,

the europeans have those in the hundreds, u.s. bradley fighting vehicles, armored personnel carriers, the brits are sending the chieftain tanks. you start adding all that up, and it gets into a pretty significant chunk of armor that can go against vladimir putin's forces. on the other side of the equation, if you're sitting in moscow, you're thinking mobilization, more troops, just throw more mass at the problem. i think at the end of the day i like the ukrainians' hand of cards better than i do the russians. >> admiral, given what you just mentioned, the british tanks on their way, battle tanks going into the fight, given the fact that ukrainian troops are here in the united states learning to use the patriot missile defense system, given the fact we saw solidarity with britain's foreign secretary in the united states and candidates standing

with american leaders saying we are united in our solidarity for ukraine, it does strike you that nearly a year into this war, vladimir putin was exactly wrong in his calculation about how the west would respond. >> 100% correct. and by the way, i happened to be in canada this morning all the way out in western canada, and you just feel it as you talk to canadians. they want to be part of this. they are going to be providing armored personnel carriers. they just made a significant announcement. and i'll give you another big miscalculation on top of thinking the west would crack apart. in fact, the opposite has happened in that finland and sweden are joining nato, which is a nightmare for putin, moves the northern flank into play, takes the arctic away from him. he has stacked miscalculation after miscalculation on top of the lies he's told us from the very beginning here. and i think the whole rotten eld

-- edifice is starting to shake. >> admiral stavridis, one of the things has always been would putin use a tactical nuclear weapon. those fears seem to have somewhat receded, but retaking crimea, that certainly is a region that's near and dear to putin's heart. what do you think is the risk there? >> i think that putin's significant red line to the degree he has something that he absolutely truly, deeply, madly wants to hold on to, it's crimea. so your nice texas twang there near and dear to his heart, i think that's a pretty good way to put it, actually. so, what should we be doing about that? i think we need to consider the possibility of him using a tactical nuke, but i think it's very unlikely, elise, because he knows there is another red line staring him in the face from the international community, and

that will be the use of a nuclear weapon, tactical, even at that relatively small level would be a significant game changer in terms of diplomat support. you'd see the indians, the south africans, the brazilians, the chinese, a lot of big, countries are still kind of on the fence in this one, if putin uses a nuke, they're gone. i think he knows that. therefore, i think it remains unlikely he'll move in that direction. >> retired four-star admiral james stavridis, thank you very much. we have an update on florida congressman greg steube. he was knocked off a ladder while cutting tree limbs on his home. he fell 25 feet to the ground and spent the night in the ic u with serious but not life-threatening injuries.

the thread says he is making progress and in good spirits. that's good news. i have a horrifying update for you, willie. >> oh, no. >> yep. so, you know -- you know our guest earlier, graduated from college in 2020. >> g.w. >> that makes her 9 when the show started. she watched it all her life. just saying. >> should we hang it up? >> i i have this it's time. >> let's keep going. 15 more years. >> 15 more. coming up, a look at some of the other stories making front-page headlines across the country, plus emmy nominated actressaverne cox will join the table straight ahead.

flu symptoms hit harder than the common cold. so it takes the right tool for the job... to keep it together. now there's new theraflu flu relief with a max strength fever fighting formula. the right tool for long lasting flu symptom relief. hot beats flu. nothing, it really is something. as an expedia member, you can save up to 30% when you add a hotel to your flight. so you can have a bit more money, to do even less. i just want to let you know in addition to being a red carpet hostess i'm also an actress. >> okay. >> i look good in blue. so, yeah, like mying a -- yeah.

>> hey. >> you're hilarious. laverne cox hosting red carpet coverage at the golden globes awards. did you have fun? >> i had a blast. >> so much fun. >> and jamie cameron called me. >> james cameron, if you're watching -- laverne taking the opportunity to advocate for a role in the upcoming "avatar." i would have done the same thing. >> a whole bunch more. >> i look great in blue. >> it's called owe v knowing your value. you have to know your value and. she is no stranger to breaking glass ceilings for over a decade. she's broken barriers for transgender actors in film and television. as a star on the award-winning show, "orange is the new black," she was able to showcase her range while putting a spotlight on transgender issues. she's also taken her talents to the red carpet, hosting e! news

golden globes coverage. she's focused her celebrity on the issues, becoming a leading activist for transgender people in america at a time when nearly a dozen states are looking to strip health care access from thousands of people. and the actress and advocate joins us now. it's good to see you. >>ite's good to be here. thank you for having me. >> i'm curious about your advocacy and, like, when for you did your struggle lead to success and learning to advocate for yourself? because now you do it so well for others. >> i -- the first protest i went to was in 2021. i'm 50 years old, a transwoman named amanda milan had been murdered in new york, and that was sort of the first sort of protest and vigil i went to. so my entire adult life, i've been advocating, trying to get human rights protections for trans folks in new york city.

in 2000 i was at city hall testifying. albany. so it's been a part of my life before i was well-known and continues to be a part of my life. and i'm exhausted. and trans people are exhausted. there's just a lot going on. what really has called me of course is this latest bill from oklahoma that would ban gender care till the age of 26. for years we've been hearing from anti-trans pundits and politicians that this is about protecting children. but this oklahoma law reveals it's never been about the children. it's always been about scapegoating scapegoating trans people, stigmatizing us, criminalizing us, and making us not exist. we have pundits from anti-trans pun diplomats and politicians on television every single day saying horrible things about trans people, on the internet saying horrible things, things that lead to bomb threats, the founder of tiktok took credit

for that bomb threat. and also she boasted proudly on tucker carlson she is communicating with ron desantis and her work, her anti-trans people work led directly to the don't say gay bill. so the way we talk about trans people in the media has an effect on these policies. a lot of the ways in which we see trans people talked about on the internet and the news, those exact ways are finding -- that language is finding its way to legislation. so i wanted to come on today for all those people who have the best of intentions and want to support trans people, don't know the right language, how to talk about it or are scared to say the wrong thing, we need the right language to combat this. anti-trans folks have been setting the agenda how we talk about this, and we need to take back the narrative. we can do it right away. it is january 19th and there have been 151 bills targeting

trans and lgbt bills targeting trans people. 151. it's january 19. >> wow. you have to get an education to some of these folks who are using the wrong language and saying the wrong things. what would that be? >> i'm not language police. >> not at all. >> i'm not in to censoring. but if we are interested in the humanity of trans people and understanding that we exist, i would say first of all there are so many wonderful pun diplomats and politicians saying gender affirming care for children, that's something we should debate. children don't know. i would disagree. i would say hashtag it's none of your business. if you are a parent with a trans child, it is your business. the american medical association and american academy of pediatrics has developed wonderful protocols that have worked for treating trans children. and parents who are dealing with that can go and get that information. if you're a parent of a trans

child, it's your business. if you're not, it's none of your business. what adults do with their bodies is none of their business. this is america. it should be about freedom. boldly autonomy. i'm pro-choice and we should have the right to do with our bodies what we want to in america. even for children, that's their parents' business and doctor's business. it is not a legislator's business who doesn't know anything about it. what i would suggest, debating whether trans folks should have access to health care, we're objectifying them. when we see senators in supreme court confirmations talking about mutilating children, objectifying children, talking about children'sobjectify, we dehumanize. that's what this whole project has been about. not making trans people real human beings who exist. i kitsch. there's no transquestion. i exist here.

i have a material reality, lived experiences. and trans people have always existed. we're the not going to stop existing if people don't teach about us. we should have acceptance. it is our business if we're discriminated against in health care and employment and housing, which many of these people want to do. that is our business if we believe in liberty and justice for all americans. what people do with their bodies is none of their business. sdwl you said something very important. we have always existed. young people now grappling with these questions about their identity have someone to look to. when you and i were growing up, we're around the same age, we didn't have that. we didn't have people to look up to. i'm curious what it was like growing up in alabama. what was it like for you? what was it like to not have these examples? >> there was suicide attempts. there was a tremendous amount of shame. i was bullied every single day. i was beaten up multiple times. there was no trans people on television. what i did sees was deeply

disparaging. i didn't want to be trans. i did everything i could not to be trance. but i'm trance any way. i grew up in an environment there was no education about trance people, yet i was still trance. i found my way. media representation, stopping education about trans people doesn't stop us from being trans. i know because i'm 50 years old and i know my history. trans people have gotten access to gender affirming health care, but they have gotten it on the street. they haven't been able to do it in a healthy way. people will have abortions. will they do it in a healthy way. >> you're connecting it to women's health, which is what i prefer to call abortion because it's women's choice. it's a form of health care. it's the same issue. it's limiting what doctors can provide to individuals who have made a choice. >> it's even referrals. so in arkansas as well as this new law in oklahoma, if you

refer someone for gender affirming care, that can become a feony now. just to refer someone. they don't want trans people to exist. that is really what this whole project is about you can't make us not kitsch. that just doesn't work. and i also -- this feels hyperbolic, but i thought a the lot about it. there's been a rise in anti-semitism all over the country. it's disgusting and horrible. people should know that one of the first things that the nazis did in 1933 was they burned gender sexuality. he was studying lgbtq people. the nazis burned it down. all of this research. and there were lgbtq people in consecration camps stamped with pink triangles. so in this moment of a rise of anti-semitism, we see this documented rise in

translegislation and rhetoric. these are not a koins kwens. dense. we have to fight for transrights as well. they are on tv every day. we need to be more engaged in this. and i know trance eem are a small part of the population, but it's not unrelated to everything else that's happening. this is about freedom. we're americans. we should be about freedom. >> you have done a good job making the connection. before you go, what's next in your career? >> i'm shooting a show produced norman lyricaled "clean slate". i'm continuing to host the red carpets. >> and a nod to james cameron. >> and mutt podcast is coming back. so busy. >> thank you very much for coming on this morning.

we appreciate you. we'll with right back with much more "morning joe." u. we'll with right back with much more "morning joe. realtor.com (in a whisper) can we even afford this house? maybe jacob can finally get a job. the house whisperer! this house says use realtor.com to see homes in your budget. you're staying in school, jacob! realtor.com. to each their home. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. realtor.com. ♪ things are looking up ♪ ♪ i've got symptom relief ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements at 4 weeks. skyrizi is the first and only il-23 inhibitor for crohn's that can deliver both clinical remission and endoscopic improvement. the majority of people on skyrizi achieved long lasting remission at 1 year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur.

tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. ask your gastroenterologist how you can take control of your crohn's with skyrizi. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ learn how abbvie could help you save. if your company actually practices the values that it posts about, then, yeah... you're on team earth. hi, we've both got a big birthday coming up. so we have a lot of questions about medicare plans. we've got a lot of answers! how can i help? well for starters, do you include hearing benefits? how about a plan with dental, vision and hearing benefits? i sure like the sound of that! then how does a $0 monthly plan premium sound? ooooooooh! [laughs]

if you're new to medicare, call 1-888-65-aetna. we'll walk you through all your coverage and benefit options to help find the right plan for you.

welcome back to "morning joe." what do you do when you have mascara on your contact lens. i use a script. a top official in britain's food regulator says bringing cake into the office -- we teased

this like four hours ago. i thought it was today. bringing cake into the office could be just as harmful as secondhand smoke offering sweet treats at work can influence people to make unhealthy decisions. and that people should create a more supportive environment. a statement was released saying herself vurs were not a representation of the british government. i'll bring cake into work if it brings people into work. does anybody want to come into work. final thoughts, what are you watching today? >> who is going to break first in in the next hour or so, whether there will be charges. and then the orr new mexico story.

comments from nashville about this. because it is important. it's something that maybe happening below the surface on the local level. this man in new mexico in the name of the big lie almost killed a bunch of people. >> his own ini january 6th. and that does it for us this morning. jose diaz-balart picks up the coverage. 10:00 a.m. eastern. i'm jose diaz-balart. the u.s. could hit its borrowing limit today. setting the stage for an intense battle on capitol hill where republicans say they will not raise the debt limit without major spending cuts. former treasury secretary lew will join us. president biden is now headed to california to tour the catastrophic damage left behind by a string of powerful and deadly storms. we'll break down what this means for vulnerable communities now struggling to recover. also this